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The origins of Sauron's name(s)...

Úlairi

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The History of Middle-earth I: The Book of Lost Tales - Volume I

A servant of Melko named 'Fúkil or Fangli' entered the world, and coming among Men perverted them...
The History of Middle-earth I: The Book of Lost Tales - Volume I

...Fankil servant of Melko dwelt uncaptured in the world. (Fankil=Fangli / Fúkil of A and B. In C he is called 'child of Melko'. Fankil has been mentioned at an earlier point in D, when at the time of the Awakening of the Elves 'Fankil and many dark shapes escaped into the world'...
The History of Middle-earth II: The Book of Lost Tales - Volume II

It would scarcely be true, I think to say even that Sauron 'originated' in a cat: in the next phase of the legends of the Necromancer (Thû) has no feline attributes.
Granted these are quotes from HoME where the Dwarves are considered to be an evil race and Tolkien contemplates the possibility that Sauron originated from a cat; but they are nonetheless potential names for Sauron before he became a servant of Morgoth.

So, we have a potential list of (what I will call) Aulian [Aulë-ian - Sauron originally being a Maia of Aulë] (pre-Melkor) names of Sauron.

"The Aulian Names of Sauron"

  1. Fúkil:
    • Quenya: Could it be Fui (Night) + cilmë (choosing)? Was Sauron a Night-chooser - one who chose the Night over the day? Evil is quite often associated with the Night.
    • Anyone have any potential Sindarin meanings? I'm simply not well-versed on the language.
  2. Fangli:
    • Quenya: Fanga (beard) + -li (partitive plural = "some) and is thus: "Some beard". Highly doubtful - the one I particularly like is this: fána (cloud - which is a reference to the hues and raiments assumed by the Ainur to appear Incarnate for the Children) + -li (partitive plural again) and thus: Some cloud = some raiments or hues. We know that Sauron was a gifted shape-shifter when he is attacked by Huan and when he becomes Annatar and reassumes a fair raiment to deceive the Elves of Eregion.
    • I'm open again to any potential Sindarin translation.
  3. Fankil:
    • Quenya: I'm not going to worry about the possibility of the beard translation (we never hear of Sauron being bearded - he wasn't an Istar!!!). However, another translation that may be good is: fána + cilmë = Cloud of Night. This could be a potential reference to Sauron assuming a terrible form (remember Gorthaur - dread, horror + abhorrent, abominable) in reference to his raiment in cloud.
    • You know the drill with Sindarin.
  4. Thû:
    • For one I don't recall the "û" being used in Quenya. I acknowledge my knowledge in this area is very limited - which is why I've posted this thread. Also, to my limited knowledge I don't believe th actually existed in Quenya; which leaves only a possible Sindarin translation.
    • We already have the possible translation suggested in the passage above of Necromancer. Could this be Adûnaic?
    • Doriathrin: could be from the stem thur- = surround, fence, ward etc. and has a possible meaning of secret also. Interesting.

What do you guys think. Elhath? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
 

Illuin

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Originally posted by Úlairi
For one I don't recall the "û" being used in Quenya

It is not. It is also not a Sindarin translation. Once again I have to speculate due to lack of information; but my guess would be that this is in the beginnings of Tolkien’s experimentation with the Black Speech, being that it is one of Sauron's names.
 

Úlairi

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It is not. It is also not a Sindarin translation. Once again I have to speculate due to lack of information; but my guess would be that this is in the beginnings of Tolkien’s experimentation with the Black Speech, being that it is one of Sauron's names.
Unfortunately (for the purposes) of this thread I would have to agree with you. I don't think the th is used either. Your theory on the Black Speech could be correct; but I'm also wondering if it was the early language of Ilkorin which is mentioned in earlier references in the book. Where's Elhath when you need him?
 

Galin

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Thû meant 'stench' in Noldorin. Quenya saura 'foul, evil smelling' derived from the same base (THUS-). Thû was also called Morthu.

Tolkien later altered the base from which Sauron was derived however. Quenya did have a sound represented by thorn þ, though for the detailed history of that see the Shibboleth of Feanor (very generally this became s as exhibited in the Quenya of the Exiles, for example).
 

Úlairi

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Thû meant 'stench' in Noldorin. Quenya saura 'foul, evil smelling' derived from the same base (THUS-). Thû was also called Morthu.

Tolkien later altered the base from which Sauron was derived however. Quenya did have a sound represented by thorn þ, though for the detailed history of that see the Shibboleth of Feanor (very generally this became s as exhibited in the Quenya of the Exiles, for example).
Thank you for the enlightening input there Galin. Yes, you're right about th becoming s in pronunciation. The Thû discovery is of extreme interest as we can obviously now presume that these were preceding and original names of Sauron. Morthu? Dark, evil smelling. Curious.

Have you any other input as to the other "Aulian Names"?
 

Alcuin

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'Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Numenor.' JRRT, from notes in PE17, base SAWA- 'disgusting, foul, vile'
This I have not seen before. Thank you! I do not have access to Parma Eldalamberon.
-|-
Added:

Galin, if the Quenya word for “excellent” or “admirable” was mairon, and that was Sauron’s original name, does Parma Eldalamberon indicate that they began to use another word instead of that one, or was it in continuous use, allowing for linguistic drift?
 
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Galin

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There doesn't seem to be much more here Alcuin (that I have found so far, I haven't read PE17 cover to cover yet). The Quenya word appears to be maira 'admirable, splendid, sublime. only of great, august or splendid things.' This is noted in an entry for a root MAY- (which includes CF. Maiar.), while the digression on Mairon appears under another root.

Mairon is maybe Q. maira with masculine -on.
 
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Úlairi

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:eek::eek::eek:

After all these years that I haven't known...

...THAT THERE'S AN ORIGINAL NAME TO SAURON??? MAIRON???

Mag-bloody-nificent!!! What a find Galin. I have to get a copy of Parma Eldalamberon now... Unbelievable. Mairon... That's just awesome. Interesting that it has nothing to do with being skilled in smith-work or anything of the like. Amazing. I guess it did say many times that Sauron could appear fair!

Cheers and thanks,

Úlairi.
 

Galin

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If you do get PE17 you'll find THUS- 'evil mist, fog' and 'Gorthu 'Mist of Fear' cf. thû 'horrible darkness, black mist'. I just add this as the 'Noldorin' thû mentioned above is from an earlier document.
 

Úlairi

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Now I know this is going to sound a little weird; but do you think you could actually provide the quote in here. I just really want to read it... :D
 

Galin

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The full entry (not counting editorial remarks from the editors of PE17) for root THUS- reads:

THUS- 'evil mist, fog, Darkness'
The digression on Mairon appears under root SAWA- and is almost complete as I posted it (my latest addition on thû is from here as well). Do you want all the first entry under SAWA- in PE17 (which includes references to Sauron)? I did not include this because Tolkien appears to change his mind, writing (the following appears after root SAWA- as printed in PE17):

'No THAW-, cruel. Saura, cruel. Gorthaur'
He also wrote:

SAWA 'bad, unhealthy, ill, wretched'
Tolkien's 'latest' written idea with respect to the name Sauron (that I know of) would seem to relate to root THAW- rather than SAWA-, as in draft letter 297 (1967).

Do you still want the full SAWA- entry anyway? I won't be able to reproduce all the diacritics if you do, and I can't promise when I'll get around to it, but I'll try.
 

Úlairi

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Do you still want the full SAWA- entry anyway? I won't be able to reproduce all the diacritics if you do, and I can't promise when I'll get around to it, but I'll try.
Yes please. *quivers in anticipation*

You've got no idea how much it used to bother me that the original Maia-n name of Sauron was never provided by Tolkien; which frustrated me as it is unambiguously something that was done for many of those Maia who entered Middle-earth such as the Istari. Tolkien was even kind enough to provide the Eastern names of the Ithryn Luin (Morinehtar and Romestamo). However, he never (in my knowledge until now) provided the Maia-n name of Sauron! Just mind-blowing....
 

Prince of Cats

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You've got no idea how much it used to bother me that the original Maia-n name of Sauron was never provided by Tolkien; which frustrated me as it is unambiguously something that was done for many of those Maia who entered Middle-earth such as the Istari.
For others curious the names of the Istari are, if nowhere else, in Unfinished Tales under The Istari. I know that Ulairi knows these based on his musings on the fate of Pallando ;)
 

Galin

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Úlairi said:
Yes please. *quivers in anticipation*
I guessed you were going to say that :D

(...) Tolkien was even kind enough to provide the Eastern names of the Ithryn Luin (Morinehtar and Romestamo) (...)
I don't think these are intended to be their Eastern names, unless you mean the names of the Eastern Wizards maybe. Tolkien seems to think they had no names in the West of Middle-earth, but he does seem ready to give them Quenya names, as he did for the other three more well known wizards too (Curumo, Olórin, Aiwendil). The possibilities are: Morinehtar, Rómestámo, Róme(n)star, Alatar, Pallando.

Tolkien appears to have ultimately 'noticed' that a note in which the names and functions (regarding the Wizards) seemed lost. It's quite possible that he was referring to the earlier text in which 'Alatar, Pallando' appear (the text published in Unfinished Tales), meaning it's possible he forgot those and went on to invent new names.

Anyway, enjoy (note: some errors in copying might occur! and this is not exactly as in PE17 with respect to indentation. And coloring by me):

SAWA-, disgusting, foul, vile: [Q saura, foul, vile, whence name Sauron]* prefix Q sau- as in saucare, doing or making a thing very badly. Not used in Sindarin as prefix; but the adjective saur occurs in the sense 'bad' of food etc., putrid, also substantive saw, filth, putrescence

also Q soa, filth (sawá). [added in left margin]

*This name is also used in late 3[rd] age Sindarin and could be a genuine Sindarin formation from saur; but is probably from Quenya. The ancient Sindarin name for Sauron was Gorthaur, of quite distinct origin: from ÑGOR- 'terror' and THUS- evil mist, fog, Darkness: ñgor(o)-thúsó > Gorthu 'Mist of Fear'; cf. thû, horrible darkness, black mist < thúsé.

Sauron's original name was Mairon, but this was altered after he was suborned by Melkor. But he continued to call himself Mairon the Admirable, or Tar-mairon 'King excellent' until after the downfall of Númenor. The Quenya form equivalent to Gorthu was: ñorthus, ñorsus, stem ñorsur-.

'No THAW-, cruel. Saura, cruel. Gorthaur'

SAWA 'bad, unhealthy, ill, wretched'
And for the ultimate derivation of Sauron, as I say, I rather go with THAW- and the letter noted above.
 

Úlairi

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I don't think these are intended to be their Eastern names, unless you mean the names of the Eastern Wizards maybe. Tolkien seems to think they had no names in the West of Middle-earth, but he does seem ready to give them Quenya names, as he did for the other three more well known wizards too (Curumo, Olórin, Aiwendil). The possibilities are: Morinehtar, Rómestámo, Róme(n)star, Alatar, Pallando.
Noted, however I would contend that their Valinorean Names were Alatar and Pallando; whereas the names they received in the East (the Eastern Names) were Morinehtar and Rómestámo (or Róme(n)star if you want to split hairs). I have always contended this due to the translation of the Eastern Names; which would not have been Valinorean Names ('Darkness-slayer and East-helper).

Tolkien appears to have ultimately 'noticed' that a note in which the names and functions (regarding the Wizards) seemed lost. It's quite possible that he was referring to the earlier text in which 'Alatar, Pallando' appear (the text published in Unfinished Tales), meaning it's possible he forgot those and went on to invent new names.
Noted, but it is also possible that he created a name combination for the Ithryn Luin as he did Gandalf/Mithrandir - Olórin, Saruman - Curumo/(Curunír), Radagast - Aiwendil, Morinehtar - Alatar or Pallando, Rómestámo/Róme(n)star - Alatar or Pallando.

Anyway, enjoy (note: some errors in copying might occur! and this is not exactly as in PE17 with respect to indentation. And coloring by me):



And for the ultimate derivation of Sauron, as I say, I rather go with THAW- and the letter noted above.
THANKS A LOT!!! :D *squeals with glee*

It's always good to learn something like that after reading (most of) the texts for so long! Rewarding per se.
 

Galin

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Úlairi said:
Noted, however I would contend that their Valinorean Names were Alatar and Pallando; whereas the names they received in the East (the Eastern Names) were Morinehtar and Rómestámo (or Róme(n)star if you want to split hairs). I have always contended this due to the translation of the Eastern Names; which would not have been Valinorean Names ('Darkness-slayer and East-helper).
These names could have been given to them after the fact by someone in the West, some scribe who somehow knew that these Istari ultimately had had 'success' (if Tolkien was truly going to go with this late idea anyway, which was not necessarily the latest on the matter). Of course this raises the question how anyone in the West knew anything clearly about these Wizards once they had passed East. I think Tolkien was perhaps on the better track when he said he knew nothing clearly about the 'other two' (in a letter).

That said, do you have a theory on who gave them Quenya names in the East?

Noted, but it is also possible that he created a name combination for the Ithryn Luin as he did Gandalf/Mithrandir - Olórin, Saruman - Curumo/(Curunír), Radagast - Aiwendil, Morinehtar - Alatar or Pallando, Rómestámo/Róme(n)star - Alatar or Pallando.
OK, but just to shine a light on it, these combinations are not exactly the same in that all the names in these combinations for the Blue Wizards are in Quenya.

As an aside: Alatar might mean *Lord of light.
 

Alcuin

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In Letters, Tolkien suggests that while the Blue Wizards ultimately failed. Letter 211 (p. 280 in the American hardback edition):
I really do not know anything clearly about the [noparse][Blue Wizards][/noparse]… What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and “magic” traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.
 

Galin

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Tolkien had a few things to say about the Blue Wizards, depending on what source one is looking at. In a note published in The History of Middle-Earth (where the Quenya names currently under discussion appear) JRRT seems to ponder that they had some success: 'They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.' (this note was hard to read in the original). This is a relatively late idea, but not necessarily the latest.


Anyway, I kind of like the unknown aspect in this example: 'whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not known.'

This one's from Unfinished Tales.
 

Úlairi

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These names could have been given to them after the fact by someone in the West, some scribe who somehow knew that these Istari ultimately had had 'success' (if Tolkien was truly going to go with this late idea anyway, which was not necessarily the latest on the matter). Of course this raises the question how anyone in the West knew anything clearly about these Wizards once they had passed East. I think Tolkien was perhaps on the better track when he said he knew nothing clearly about the 'other two' (in a letter).
Indeed you are right. It may have been a historian many years later in the Fourth Age who discovered more about the Ithryn Luin also. I don't know what it is; but I get the feeling that his later works were tying up loose ends. I know this is unsubstantiated opinion; it's just how I feel about the matter. Especially concerning the etymology of Morinehtar and Rómestámo. You're opinion that he was on 'better track' is as unsubstantiated as my opinion that he was. As for Alcuin's quote; I'm well aware of it. In fact this is the quote that I use to elucidate my contention to others often about this very topic. I'll re-quote it:

The Letter of JRR Tolkien - #187: From a letter to H. Cotton Minchin (draft)

...and historians want more details about ... the missing two wizards...
The Letter of JRR Tolkien - #211: To Rhona Beare

I have not named the colours, because I do not know them. I doubt if they had distinctive colours. ... (On the names ... I really do not know anything clearly about the other two...
Note that at this point he didn't even know the colours!!! However, any scholar of Tolkien will tell you its sea-blue (Unfinished Tales, Galin ;)). Tolkien eventually decided on the colours so there is the distinct possibility that Tolkien, feeling that he had not given his readers enough information on the Ithryn Luin bowed to the historians from the above quote and decided to elaborate further. Whilst I cannot prove this is what Tolkien intended; from logical inference I feel that my deductions are correct; especially considering what can be gleaned from the above quotes.

That said, do you have a theory on who gave them Quenya names in the East?
As you've said, it's possible these names eventually came from the Histories (Annals) of the West, where Quenya was still a language in circulation in the Fourth Age. I particularly like this theory though: it was bestowed upon them by Black Númenoreans who would still likely have a knowledge of Quenya; depsite their perversion to evil. What do you think? ;)

OK, but just to shine a light on it, these combinations are not exactly the same in that all the names in these combinations for the Blue Wizards are in Quenya.
I well aware of this Galin. And your translation (below) of Alatar is exactly how I translated it some years ago. Pallando is a little more difficult. CT provides possible translations in UT. That being said, this is why I would contend that Black Númenoreans (with possibly still a general knowledge of Quenya) gave these names (Morinehtar and Rómestámo) to Alatar and Pallando.

Tolkien had a few things to say about the Blue Wizards, depending on what source one is looking at. In a note published in The History of Middle-Earth (where the Quenya names currently under discussion appear) JRRT seems to ponder that they had some success: 'They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East ... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ... outnumbered the West.' (this note was hard to read in the original). This is a relatively late idea, but not necessarily the latest.
I'm going to post eveything on the Ithryn Luin below for the future benefit of anyone seeking to post a topic on it (including myself).

Anyway, I kind of like the unknown aspect in this example: 'whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not known.'

This one's from Unfinished Tales.
And I've developed a few theories with respect to the Ithryn Luin and the Nazgûl from that very quote. As for liking the unknown apsect - I kinda like knowing a little bit more about them. ;)

Watch this space for the Ithryn Luin Information Post.
 

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