🧙 The Tolkien Forum 🧝

Welcome to our forum! Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox! Plus you won't see ads ;)

The other Rings?

M

marko

Guest
Hi,
I was just wondering what has become of the other Rings. I know that Sauron was able to enslave the nine 'Man' Kings he gave rings to but how is it that the elves still have their Rings and have not turned to evil.

And from the appendices I gather that Sauron took back at least one ring from the Dwarves - did he take back all the other Rings he had given to the Dwarves?

I found it odd that considering the One Ring could have fallen into Sauron's hands at any time, that Elrond and Co. didn't think it wise to cast away their rinsg or that Tolkien didn't at least mention this as a consequence of what would happen if Frodo had been captured and Sauron had reclaimed his Ring?

Also,(I know I'm labouring the point) why did Sauron make a One Ring in the first place - fair enough that he wanted to control all the other Ring Bearers but why did he need a Ring for this? If it was his power that he was putting into the Ring, why put all his power into something that could be chopped off his hand????

Any thoughts, Cheers.........
 

Gary Gamgee

Mr Muckle
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
332
Reaction score
0
Location
Manchester UK
Hi marko

Sauron never touched the three elvin rings these were made by the elves and were not inheirantly evil. They took off the three before Sauron, first time round, put the one ring on, thus he never had any control over the elves. They can use the three as long as Sauron is not wearing the one. When Galadriel say's to Frodo you are the footsteps of doom she knows that if Sauron were to get the ring back she would not be able to use her ring and Lorien would fade, also if the ring is destroyed her own ring would lose it's power.

GG
 

Snaga

The Usual Suspect
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
5
Hi marko & welcome!

Sauron made the One Ring himself, to enslave the others. But at the moment at which it was created the owners of the 3 realised what was going on and hid their rings. So I think if Sauron had got back the his Ring, they would probably still been able to take their rings off. I don't think they would have been instantly enslaved.

All the dwarves rings were either consumed by dragons, or taken back by Sauron too.

I don't know why he need a ring to control a ring... but it sort of makes sense. I guess you're right he was taking a risk to put so much of his own power into something that could be cut off his finger. But he probably thought that with it he'd be unbeatable. But when he declared war on Elves and Men at the time of the Last Alliance he did so too quickly, before he'd really gathered all his forces, which was why the Last Alliance was able to beat him.
 

Beleg Strongbow

Superior Elf
Joined
Jan 18, 2002
Messages
698
Reaction score
0
Location
Doriath AND Sydney Australia and where ever "SHE"
Originally posted by marko
Hi,
I was just wondering what has become of the other Rings. I know that Sauron was able to enslave the nine 'Man' Kings he gave rings to but how is it that the elves still have their Rings and have not turned to evil.

And from the appendices I gather that Sauron took back at least one ring from the Dwarves - did he take back all the other Rings he had given to the Dwarves?

I found it odd that considering the One Ring could have fallen into Sauron's hands at any time, that Elrond and Co. didn't think it wise to cast away their rinsg or that Tolkien didn't at least mention this as a consequence of what would happen if Frodo had been captured and Sauron had reclaimed his Ring?

Also,(I know I'm labouring the point) why did Sauron make a One Ring in the first place - fair enough that he wanted to control all the other Ring Bearers but why did he need a Ring for this? If it was his power that he was putting into the Ring, why put all his power into something that could be chopped off his hand????

Any thoughts, Cheers.........



The rings of power were made by the elven smiths of Hollin, the best and most skilled was celembrimbor. Now there were 19 "elvish" rings in all 7, 9, and 3. Now the 7 and 9 were made by the help of Sauron and they had a bit of evil in them. The 3 was made by celembrimbor alone and Sauron never touched or sore them. At this time the one ring was made to rule or the others and celembrimbor new he was betrayed he hid the 3 rings. There are several versoins on who he gave the rings but in the end galadriel had one from the start. Elrond got gil-galads ring when they went for the last alliance. Cirdan gave gandalf his ring to. Now back to the time at hand. Sauron made war on the elves for the rings. He got the 9 which he gave to mortal men the 7 in which he gave fo the dwarves but the 3 he couldn't find. The 3 elf lords hid their rings and never used them. Now the elf rings stayed with their masters fo ever and did great good. The 9 of men Sauron found easy to corrupt and he got them under his service as the nazgul. The 7 he founded hard to get. But he got back 3 rings 4 others had been consumed by dragon fire.


That is the story in brief and i hope it helps Marko!!:D :D :D :) :) :) :cool: :cool: :cool:
 

Urylia

so so lonely
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
49
Reaction score
0
Location
new jersey
While we are on the topic of rings, this guy (the same one who compared me to Luthien) said that Gandalf has one of the three elven rings. Is this true?
 

Goro Shimura

Scribe of the Eldanyárë
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
416
Reaction score
0
Location
Meneltarma
Yep... Gandalf had the third elvish ring: Narya the great with a red stone.

(Does that mean that the scene in the movie of the elves with their rings... the one with the red ring is Cirdan the shipwright? Also is there any record in Tolkien that somebody bore Galadriel's ring before she got it? That sure wasn't Galadriel in that scene! Or was it?)



Why rings?

In the middle ages, a ring was used by a king to mark letters as being from him. If he lent his ring to someone, they could give commands as the king. So rings represent power and authority....

Just a thought....
 

Snaga

The Usual Suspect
Joined
Feb 11, 2002
Messages
2,261
Reaction score
5
Goroshimura

I think it WAS Galadriel in that scene. I think they were meant to be Cirdan (the old looking one with white hair), Galadriel and Gil-Galad (with dark hair).

Can anyone confirm that SHOULD be Gil-Galad... because I can't remember where but I'm pretty sure GG had it before Elrond. If so should GG have dark hair, or fair hair. I thought as one of the Noldor he'd be a blondie?? (As opposed to Legolas who ought to have dark hair?)
 

Grond

Morgoth's Mace
Joined
Oct 31, 2001
Messages
3,040
Reaction score
37
Location
Somewhere in a Tolkien story.
Galadriel was in the scene in the movie. Tolkien had said at one time that Celimbrimbor gave the first to Galadriel (she was the Elf-queen of Eregion in some accounts) and the other two he sent to Gil-galad for safe keeping. Gil-galad gave one of these to Elrond and one to Cirdan. Later Cirdan passed his on to Mithrandir/Gandalf.

In the flick, it appears that Celebrimbor is giving one each to Gil-galad, Galadriel and Cirdan. Understand that Tolkien wrote many different accounts of many different events in his books so the movie scene is not out of line.
 
O

Osric

Guest
Originally posted by Goroshimura
Why rings?
In the middle ages, a ring was used by a king to mark letters as being from him. If he lent his ring to someone, they could give commands as the king. So rings represent power and authority.
In the Norse and Anglo-Saxon cultures of which Tolkien was a particular afficionado, a ring was a mark of appreciation. The lord of the tribe/clan/host got all the wealth, but distributed it amongst his loyal followers, often in the form of rings, such that a favoured lord was called a ring-giver.
I think this informs the idea more than the later medieval reference.
But at the end of the day, it all stems from Tolkien having invented a ring that made people invisible in one book and then extrapolated from there when the publishers wanted a sequel, so maybe we should ask "why a ring of invisibility?"

Cheers,
-- Os.
 
H

Harad

Guest
Its an interesting evolution.

Assuming there wasnt rewriting--and there may have been--the Hobbit says:

...it was a ring of power, and if you slipped that ring on your finger, you were invisible...But who knows how Gollum came by that present...
JRRT was clever enough to expand the Ring from one with a simple magical property to the key item in the Age. My guess is that parts of the evolution came from "how Gollum got the Ring" --via murder--and thence a backward history connecting it to the Lord of Murder, Sauron. Then add a few properties of "power" and voila, LOTR.
 

Bill the Pony

Registered User
Joined
Dec 12, 2001
Messages
188
Reaction score
1
Originally posted by Harad
Assuming there wasnt rewriting--and there may have been--the Hobbit says:
I don't know about this particular quote, but I just read in one of the early letters (I'm only halfway through so far) that Tolkien rewrote the 'riddles in the dark' chapter to make it fit better for LOTR. From memory, I don't have the books with me, apparently in the first edition Gollum was planning to actually give the ring to Bilbo if Bilbo won the riddle game, and apologized when he could not find it. Since this would not fit with the nature of the ring in LOTR, Tolkien changed it to the version I think everyone is familiar with. If I remember right, the rest of your story fits with that letter.
(I hope I remembered this right, I'll get back to you if not)
 
H

Harad

Guest
The "history" of the Hobbit says there was rewriting of the Riddle Game. This works both to really make the Hobbit consistent with LOTR and to introduce the idea of Bilbo fudging the details at first. It would be fascinating to see a 1930-1940 edition of the Hobbit to see what it REALLY said.

However, I was referring to the sentences describing the Ring which may or may not have been retouched, independent of the Riddle Game.
 

Goro Shimura

Scribe of the Eldanyárë
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
416
Reaction score
0
Location
Meneltarma
Did anyone ever explain why rings of power make mortals invisible... but not elves, wizards, and Sauron?

(And would Frodo turn invisible if he put Galadriel's or Gandalf's ring on? I think so....)

There is definitely a logic behind everything: the hobbit's resistance to rings, the men's weakness... the fading. The "power given according to stature." The lust for the ring... the long life... the way the ring betrays it's users and corrupts them....

I just don't understand why everything was set out that way. I myself would never have been able to develop such an elaborate... (what?)... uh... thing.
 
H

Harad

Guest
Do the other rings make you invisible? Would the Red Ring worn by Gandalf make Frodo invisible?

IMO the invisiblity of the OneRing was an added on feature by necessity from the earlier Hobbit, but not really integral to its nature, as finally described in LOTR.
 

Goro Shimura

Scribe of the Eldanyárë
Joined
Dec 30, 2001
Messages
416
Reaction score
0
Location
Meneltarma
But why the differentiation in effects between mortals and immortals?

There's something more to this invisibility of men and hobbits (but not elves) than just a neato plot element.

(I wish I could tell you what it was, though...)
 

Nazgul_Lord

Registered User
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
52
Reaction score
0
All of the dwarven rings were destroyed or lost, the nine rings are worn by the Nazgul, the one is destroyed in the fires of mount doom by Gollum accidentaly, and the Three elven are held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf.
 

Grond

Morgoth's Mace
Joined
Oct 31, 2001
Messages
3,040
Reaction score
37
Location
Somewhere in a Tolkien story.
Gandalf states in FotR, The Shadow of the Past,
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades: he becomes in the end invisible permanently, and walks in the twilight under the eye of the dark power that rules the Rings. Yes, sooner or later -- later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last -- sooner or later the dark power will devour him."

This passage can be clearly taken to mean that any of the 20 Great Rings would make a mortal invisible but JRRT later refines his answer. The Elven Rings do not confer invisibility as they were never touched by Sauron and Power was not their aim. The seven Dwarf-rings did not confer invisibility on the Dwarves but would have on Man or Hobbit. (I would deem that Tolkien did not mean to include Dwarves with mortals). The Nine did exactly as the quote from Gandalf states and "consumed" the essence of the nine kings who received them, turning them into wraiths.

The ultimate explanation was that it allowed those who had no defined being on the other side (Aman/Heaven) existed in that plane while wearing one of the Great Rings. In other words it only effected Man or man-products such as Hobbits with invisibility. I will look in the Letters and see if I can find any other information on this subject.

Harad, you are right. It does appear that the magic ring from the Hobbit was transformed sometime after its publishing into the Great Ring of Power.:)
 

Elanor2

Registered User
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Messages
177
Reaction score
0
Location
Germany
Just to add on the 3 elven rings...

Celebrimbor was a Noldor lord, cousin of Gil-Galad and nephew of Galadriel. It makes sense that he would give the rings he made to his family. How one got in the hands of Cirdan, I do not know. I thought that when Celebrimbor left ME after his domain of Eregion was destroyed, he might have left it with Cirdan at the Grey Havens. But if he sent it to Gil-galad before, Gil-galad himself should have given it to Cirdan. Cirdan was the oldest and wisest Sindar elf left, after all.
 
O

Osric

Guest
Originally posted by Harad
Do the other rings make you invisible? Would the Red Ring worn by Gandalf make Frodo invisible?
IMO the invisiblity of the OneRing was an added on feature by necessity from the earlier Hobbit, but not really integral to its nature, as finally described in LOTR.
Invisibility was something they all shared, IIRC (or at least most of them did). You can see a hint of this in the fact that Narya only appeared on Gandalf's hand after the destruction of the One, Sam couldn't see Nenya on Galadriel's hand while ringbearer Frodo could (and Elrond's one doesn't get mentioned at all).

Frodo once asks why he can't boss the Nazgul around, and part of the answer is that he hasn't even tried yet -- let alone learnt how or had chance to put in any practice at it. I have always assumed the invisibility effect was another one that could be mastered given the lore and the control to do it, and would then be optional.

Sauron wasn't invisible when Isildur lopped his Ring off, and it didn't turn Tom Bombadil invisible either.
 

Thread suggestions

Top