🧙 The Tolkien Forum 🧝

Welcome to our forum! Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox! Plus you won't see ads ;)

The "WHAT IF...?" game-Archive

Lhunithiliel

Fëanorean
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
3,138
Reaction score
7
Varda was flying towards the Halls of Eru. Like a lonely star she was against the deep blackness of the Void.

Her heart was heavy with sorrow and fear. No consolation she could find in the space of Arda. No one could aid her there. It was the wisdom of the Creator she needed.

Eru met her. He knew why she was coming.
“You have come to me, Oh! Daughter of the Light!”

“Mighty father,” said Varda, “The Valar are in war and I could do but a little to stop it. I tried to appeal to their wisdom and to prevent them from destroying the wonderful world we once created under your guidance! Alas! They would not listen to me!” ….
She paused and sighed. “Perhaps it was my fault. Perhaps I should have stayed with Manwe – the King of Arda as you wished him to be…. and as you wished me to be his Queen…. Perhaps I should have not let my soul and my heart guide my deeds….”

Eru smiled gently.

“Was not I, who made you so? Did not I teach you how to love and be faithful to your feelings rather than to your wisdom? To rule over Arda I sent Manwe! And to you I gave the strength of love for life itself. Any world needs the warmth of love and compassion, Varda! Do not blame your heart! Arda would have not become so beautiful if all of you, the Ainur, were led by wisdom only! For wisdom alone does not create beauty!”

“You have done well to come to me! Do you think I have abandoned the most glorious creation of mine? Do you think I do not weep when I watch the two brethren – Manwe and Melkor, fighting each against other? Oh! I do! And I have heard Manwe’s call…. I have spoken to him! He now has my advice.
I pity Melkor, though. He proved again to be incapable of understanding the true power that Good can give. He still thinks that Darkness can be his ally.

But deep in his soul he knows he is doing wrong, Varda. Whenever he looks at the divine light upon your face – he knows that the Flame Imperishable can defeat Darkness! Whenever he sees the tenderness in your kind eyes – he knows that Love and Good-will can defeat Evil!
But he is too proud to acknowledge his mistake, I am afraid! He would rather sacrifice Arda, sacrifice beauty…. sacrifice his love for you even, my daughter…. All in the name of his vanity and lust for power!

Fool! What will he rule over if Arda is to be destroyed?!”

Varda kept silent. What could she say?! The wisdom of Illuvatar was clear as the crystals upon the shores of the Blessed Realm. But sharp pain his words caused to her too! For the truth Eru was speaking! She was the only one of the Valar, to has looked behind the mask of malice and cruelty that Melkor wore. She knew the deepest secrets of his mind and she had learned that he would not give up even for his love for her, nor even for love of Arda! He would rather throw it into flames and desolation than surrender and bow before Manwe as the Only King of Arda! She had tried to fight his cruel ambitions and bring forth the goodness in his heart. Alas! When Melkor sensed that, he concealed his heart and mind from her. No more he looked in her eyes for he feared the rebuke he could see there! No more he spoke to her of his feelings! He seemed to have sacrificed their love!
That hurt Varda! For she believed in him! She used to believe in the power of the love he once had for her! She thought she could change him and bring him to the Light – the Light he wished to possess so much! …. He did not let her! He did not understand her! Now she had no more power over him! He had turned into Morgoth!

Eru spoke again.
“I see your thoughts, Varda! Do not feel sorrow, or pity for Melkor… His soul is lost forever! He alone had chosen to surrender to Darkness!”

“But, my Lord,” whispered Varda, and her sigh came out like a spring of flickering tiny shining star-sparkles. “He has become too perilous! And his brethren – Manwe’s allies are filled with wrath! … I feel I am the only one who can stop the madness of destruction!….. This is why I came to you! I felt as if you had summoned me to you! I dreamt I heard your voice calling me here! Was it just a vision?”

“You have heard me well, my daughter! Indeed! It was I who called you here! But I will not keep you by my side, though I wished I could! No! Lo!
You shall return to Arda but not as Varda the Queen of Stars.

As the Avenging Angel of Light you will return, as my mightiest herald and warrior and I will give you the mightiest weapons that no Vala can ever oppose! I give you the spear of Justice! Its point burns with the Flame Imperishable and no weapon of the Dark Powers can ever stand against and survive this flame! And I also give you the Star of Wisdom! It will shine on your brow and whoever looks at it, will be forever gained for the power of the Light!”

And Illuvatar raised his both arms and there was a flash of lightening and Varda felt a new strength entering into her mind. And then she saw herself as if from afar.

There stood the most beautiful yet the most fearful warrior this world had ever seen and Varda could hardly recognize it was herself that she was looking at!
White was her armour and bright and it was shining with a strong glow. On her forehead she wore a star and its light pierced the Dark of the Void and it had laid a path of light straight to the blue hue in which Arda was wrapped.
And a mighty spear she wore, too. Its point was burning with a white flame and looking at this vision, Varda felt as the Queen of the World, for she knew that the Flame was in her hand by the grace of Illuvatar!


And thus, the Avenging Angel of Light flashed through the Void like a shining comet and reached the confines of Arda. Then she pierced the three layers of air and soon a new star shone over the valley of Valinor. And all the Valar and Maiar and all the lesser spirits wondered in awe!

And far in the North, Melkor looked at this new wonder in the skies and his heart sank with grief and fear. For the Dark Lord knew then that Illuvatar had sent his death!
 

Húrin Thalion

King of Crisps
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
395
Reaction score
1
Location
Allsvenskan
I have GG! Anyway get on with the story someone I was really disappointed when there were no new stories here after the weekend.:confused:

Elen
 

gate7ole

Registered User
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
1,155
Reaction score
2
At the wastes of Amaran, a terrible war was in progress. A war that no man has ever imagined, no elf has been ever told, no tale describes, since too much grief is sinking the hearts of the Ainur. To the eyes of a mortal man it would seem as a terrible wind being caught between two opposing storms, spreading the clouds all over the sky. The immense gathering of spirits illuminated the white Pelori mountains. Never again such a concentration of power would disturb the roots of Arda.
Many of the higher Ainur lost their powers and diminished into shadow, but the Valar still held the defense of their realm thanks to Tulkas and Orome’s great valour. They wouldn’t hold much more, though.
Manwe from his tower on Talinquetil was the first one to perceive that the sky was changing. It didn’t take long for all the Ainur to realize that from the sky was descending a glorious star. Melkor’s heart burdened at the sight of this ominous spectacle, though he didn’t know why.
And then in the mist of the war, between the two storms, a light conquered the darkness and the battle ceased. The Avenging Angel had landed and all Ainur bowed with awe in front of the emissary of Eru. Soon, at both her sides came the leaders of the two hosts: Orome and Sauron.
“Bring me your Lords”, commanded the Angel.
Then, for the first time after the Beginning of Time, the two brethren Manwe and Melkor stood facing each other. No one spoke for a while and the Angel raised her spear and shouted:
“This is the Spear of Justice and it was given to me by the creator. Obey my orders, holy Children of Iluvatar and you will be saved from his wrath. You are the Ainur, the powers of Arda and were sent here not to make wars. You have strayed from your mission and many of you are walking on the paths of Darkness. Repent and you will be forgiven.”
And she turned to the two brethren and said:
“And you both, mighty Valar, forget your strife, join your powers to bring peace to Arda again. Melkor, accept Iluvatar’s forgiveness and reject the darkness. Aid your brother not as a superior, but as an equal.”
Then Melkor raised his head and his furious gaze would even pierce the Walls of Night.
“I do not accept a forgiveness, because I am guilty of nothing, Varda. My fool brother may be blind, but I see through your raiment. You betrayed me and now come as a messenger to offer truce for a war that I will soon win. Go back to your master, Manwe. Soon, there will be no kingdom for you to rule.”
And he ordered his host to attack the Lord of the West and his army. But none moved.
“You may see through me, but you are blind Melkor. You cannot see that your war has ended and you rejected your only chance of salvation. I grieve, for you were once mighty and have become a servant of evil.”
She pointed the Spear towards Melkor and ordered Tulkas.
“Chain him and bring him to the Ring of Doom for his trial.”
Then Tulkas tied Melkor with Angainor and took him away, while most of his host run away to avoid Orome’s fury.
Finally, Varda turned to Manwe and ask him.
“Will you ever pardon me?”
 

Nenya Evenstar

Registered User
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
1
Location
Nebraska, USA
"Varda, Queen of the Stars, you ask for something that is only within my nature to give!" Manwe spoke, the tears flowing from his eyes. "For as much as Eru is willing to forgive should not I forgive as well?"

"But my Lord," Varda replied, her voice filled with emotion, "I feel that I have wronged you much more than I have wronged Iluvatar - though I did indeed wrong him as well. But you...." The tears flowed freely now. "I have deserted you, forsaken you, and wronged you. I do not deserve your forgiveness. I deserve nothing more than what I have made myself."

But Manwe said, "Behold! You are now no longer what you think you are, for Iluvatar has taken you back unto himself. You are once again counted among the Valar of Eru and have regained your title of Queen of the Stars. And unto you I give a new name: You shall be forever more after this day Varda, Giver of Hope, for you came into my bleakest hour with the shining light of the heavens upon your brow and brought hope to all the world."

And they wept together in an embrace, and Varda felt the love of Manwe and knew now with no doubt that he had always loved her and would always love her, for she felt his forgiveness as she looked into his eyes, and she praised her Maker in the light of that happy hour.
 

gate7ole

Registered User
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
1,155
Reaction score
2
OK, for everyone interested, I provided a summary of the plot of our new What-If, at the work-book of the game.
The theme of this What-If is the Faring Forth, and will be explored in a discussion form. In a few words the Faring Forth is the expedition of the elves of Tol Eressëa to Middle Earth, with the purpose of finding the remaining elves that still linger there and take them back to Aman. The whole island will be uprooted by Ossë and it will be brought to the western coasts of Middle Earth. Whether the mission will succeed or not, it will depend on the aid or hostility of Men.

The basic observation about this discussion is that the Faring Forth is taking place in a much later period than the Third Age.
From the Silmarillion
In after days, when because of the triumph of Morgoth Elves and Men became estranged, as
be most wished, those of the Elven-race that lived still in Middle-earth waned and faded, and Men
usurped the sunlight. Then the Quendi wandered in the lonely places of the great lands and the isles,
and took to the moonlight and the starlight, and to the woods and caves, becoming as shadows and
memories, save those who ever and anon set sail into the West and vanished from Middle-earth.
This probably is the situation of Middle Earth at the time of the Faring Forth. Men have almost forgotten the existence of the elves, which have become legends and fairy-tales. The remaining elves have been transformed into Lingerers:
From the Morgoth’s Ring
The Lingerers, whose bodily form may no longer be seen by us mortals, or seen only dimly and fitfully. Moreover, they are not houseless, though they may seem to be. They do not seek converse with Men at all, save maybe rarely, either for the doing of some good, or because they perceive in a Man's spirit some love of things ancient and fair. Then they may reveal to him their forms (through his mind working outwardly, maybe), and he will behold them in their beauty. Of such he may have no fear, though he may feel awe of them.
This description may fit in the present. All fairy-tales are legends to us and occasional accounts of communications with such spirits are not believable. So, we can put ourselves in the places of the Men who descry from afar the coming of an island and realize that it is full of people a sentient race, that seems more gifted than them. What would our reaction be? Would we aid them in their mission, or would the evil of Morgoth work inside us and we would attack the elves?
 

Lhunithiliel

Fëanorean
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
3,138
Reaction score
7
My questions......and some comments:

1/ How much are Men corrupted at the coming of the last Elves from Tol Eressea?
We know that Men keep a memory, though very faint, of two major events in their lives - one - that they were created by a Supreme God, whom they know only by his voice; and two - a terrible shadow had pursued them from their homes and had done great wrongs to their race. Men even believe that it was that dark shadow that had made them mortal and had taken all the joy from their lives! Yet it is that dark shadow that they had seen and had had direct contact with.... NOT with the VOICE that claimed to have created them! Nor with the Gods somewhere in the West...("ATHRABETH FINROD AH ANDRETH"; HoME X)

So, the sub-question here is: What are the moral virtues that the race of Men worship?

If they have surrendered their souls to the Darkness, to the fear and the despair, then they must have become allies of the Dark powers >>>>> which leads to a conclusion that Men are strongly corrupted , therefore, they will not meet the Elves with joy! They would rather meet them as enemies, coming to invade their lands... the only lands Men have available after being chased by the dark fear throughout ME!

2/ What do Men remember about the Elves and their contribution for the development of the race of Men?
If Men keep memories about their own race's ancient history, it is quite possible that they will recognize the fair creatures coming on that island and will most probably befriend them and source from their knowledge and thus the ancient alliance between the Children of Illuvatar will be reborn.... And glorious will be their struggle against the Dark... and probably - victorious...

This is for now....
I am expecting other people's opinions! This seems to be an excellent topic!
 

Nenya Evenstar

Registered User
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
1
Location
Nebraska, USA
1/ How much are Men corrupted at the coming of the last Elves from Tol Eressea?
Well, I for some reason cannot picture the Race of Men (for the most part) dark and corrupted, for in their first days they were around a bigger and greater evil than would probably be in the World at this time. Morgoth was in ME in their beginning time. It is also known that Men put up with Sauron during the War of the Ring. So now, when neither Maia exists, I cannot see the Race of Men being any more evil than they were during the War of the Ring. I think that they would simply have the same characteristics. Of course there would be evil men, for such men always exist, but I am sure that the race of Gondor and Numenor of old lived on and produced many wonderful people. Also we must consider how the world would have changed after the War of the Ring. Aragorn became the King of Men and as such, through his descendants, was probably a leading example for all the Race of Man.

What are the moral virtues that the race of Men worship?
I believe that they probably had many different things that they worshiped (just like in our world), and I would bet that the name of Eru is still spoken amongst them.


What would our reaction be? Would we aid them in their mission, or would the evil of Morgoth work inside us and we would attack the elves?
I believe that records undoubtedly would have been kept, and that the legends of the First Ages would be known, if even in the shadow of a thought. Thus, I would say that some people would be prone to help for they would finally believe those "legends" of the past, and others would be prone to jealousy. I would guess that instead of fighting off the Elves Man would be curious about them - just like we would be if Aliens ascended onto our planet. We would surround them, test them, see what they're made of; and only after this testing would we make our decision concerning them. I can only guess that the nobleness of the Elven kind would be so overshadowing and magnificent that Men would be astonished at what they were seeing and would treat them with respect and joy. :)
 

gate7ole

Registered User
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
1,155
Reaction score
2
I personally, am not that oprimistic as you are ladies. Men seem to me more probable to turn to evil than stick to the road of virtue. Especially without the counsil of great elven masters like Elrond and Galadriel, or Gandalf. Sauron will no more exist, but they will continue to find foul guidance among themselves.
from Morgoth's Ring
Sauron, however, was a problem that Men had to deal with finally: the first of the many concentrations of Evil into definite power-points that they would have to combat, as it was also the last of those in 'mythological' personalized (but non-human) form.
Corrupt kings, evil stewards would find it more easy to subdue their servants while the elves become "myths". And furthermore, these leaders will most probably "change" the history and provoke a sense of emnity towards the elves. Also cults that worship Morgoth, as it is implied at the "New Shadow" (HOME XII) will rise in the new United Kingdom of Gondor.
When the elves come in peace on Tol Eressea, I can imagine the behaviour of Men. Jealousy of their majesty, their immortality, their communication with the Valar. They may want to seize the ship/island and voyage to the Undying Lands, like their much more powerful ancestors, the Numenorians did.
Of course there will be voices of good will among Men. I really can't imagine though, how powerful they will be. In the end they may succeed in conquering the evil and give their aid to the elves. But the odds are I think against this outcome.
 

Nenya Evenstar

Registered User
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
1
Location
Nebraska, USA
Ah, well I am always an optimistic one! I am a staunch believer in things ending happily and for the good. I believe that this world will end that way. However, we are not talking about the end of the world :p but the Elves coming to Middle-earth near the ending of the world. I cannot share your views that men will be so evil. I believe that things would be more or less like things are in the world in which we live. There are evil men and there are good men, but most people seem to have a grasp on what "good" really is. I cannot imagine that things would be any different at this point in time that we are talking about. Most men would have that grasp and would undoubtedly act upon it.
 

Lhunithiliel

Fëanorean
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
3,138
Reaction score
7
I, too, believe in the "good side" of Men. I think it is so human to look for perfection and for beauty and ....the good in general.

I however was thinking about another issue.

Ages must have passed before this meeting - the Elves from Tol Eressea and Men from ME.
Do you think the Elves have stayed unchanged?
Having in mind the history of the Firstborn, one can deffinitely see a development and a process of changing.
So, I thought, how much could THE ELVES have changed? Have they at all? And if yes, ...in what way?

And another "crazy" question: Could we assume that the Elves come to ME with the claim that these lands are THEIR homeland and they have the rights to settle and live there as THEY wish? How would then Men react?

And last of all:
What of the three clans are the Elves on the coming Tol Eressea? What does your book say, gate7ole?
 

Nenya Evenstar

Registered User
Joined
Aug 8, 2002
Messages
2,496
Reaction score
1
Location
Nebraska, USA
Very interesting questions, Lhun. I seriously do not know how much the Elves would have changed, but do not think that if they changed at all that it would have been by much. The lands of Valinor are ageless and literally at that, I would think. I would think that since things in Valinor are ageless that they would not change except for growth in wisdom and in greater and grander works of beauty. The Elves who stayed on Middle-earth after the War of Wrath until the ending of the War of the Ring attempted to preserve what they had known as they had known it instead of embracing change as it came. So, I do not think that Elves would have changed much except for in wisdom and power, for after living so many years next to the Valar without any outside evil influence, I can picture nothing else.

I do not think that the Elves would have claimed Middle-earth for their own because they would have been familiar with Eru's will for the Secondborn. They knew that their fading from Middle-earth was inevitable. Men were meant to usurp the light and rule Middle-earth from the beginning of time.
 

gate7ole

Registered User
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
1,155
Reaction score
2
Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
Ages must have passed before this meeting - the Elves from Tol Eressea and Men from ME.
Do you think the Elves have stayed unchanged?
Having in mind the history of the Firstborn, one can deffinitely see a development and a process of changing.
So, I thought, how much could THE ELVES have changed? Have they at all? And if yes, ...in what way?

And another "crazy" question: Could we assume that the Elves come to ME with the claim that these lands are THEIR homeland and they have the rights to settle and live there as THEY wish? How would then Men react?
I agree with Nenya Evenstar. Aman is considered to be not only undying, but even unchangable. Of course there was also a decay of time, but very slight (this whole matter is referred by Tolkien concerning the language stability in Valinor)
And I doubt theat they would want to claim any ownership about the lands, though not for the reasons Nenay gives. The elves wouldn't want to leave again Valinor and its safety for ME. They made this mistake once and paid for it. No, I don't believe that any evil will be caused by the elves.

And last of all:
What of the three clans are the Elves on the coming Tol Eressea? What does your book say, gate7ole?
I'm not sure, but I think that at Tol Eressea went and stayed the Noldor. Especially after the War of Wrath and the return of the exiled. The Vanyar dwelt at Valmar, and most of the Teleri at Alqualonde (with a few only staying back on the island).
 

Lhunithiliel

Fëanorean
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
3,138
Reaction score
7
Gate7ole: quote from the Book of Lost Tales I & II:

The Elves’ prophecy is that one day they will fare forth from Tol Eressea and on arriving in the world will gather all their fading kindred who will live in the world and march towards Valinor. This they will only do with the help of Men. If Men aid them, the fairies will take Men to Valinor –those that wish to go- fight a great battle will take Melko in Erumani and open Valinor. Laurelin and Silpion will be rekindled and the mountain wall being destroyed then soft radiance will spread over all the world, and the Sun and Moon will be recalled. If Men oppose them and aid Melko the Wrack of the Gods and the ending of the fairies will result - and maybe the Great End.
------------
*the battle of Erumani is the last battle of the Valar with Morgoth at the plains of Valinor.
This is a passage that clarifies the matter of the Faring Forth. It is a prophecy and thus can be interpreted as anyone wishes.

Tolkien also wrote another short passage, giving a disastrous outcome of the prophecy:

quote:
the time is not ready for the Faring Forth, but the fairies judge it to be necessary. They obtain through Ulmo the help of Uin, and Tol Eressea is uprooted and dragged near to the Great Lands, nigh to the promontory of Ros. A magic bridge is cast across the intervening sound. Osse is wroth at the breaking of the roots of the isle he set so long ago –and many of his rare sea-treasures grow about it- that he tries to wrench it back; and the western half breaks off, and is now the Isle of Iverin.
The battle of Ros: the Island-elves and the Lost-Elves against Nautar, Gongs, Orcs and a few evil Men. Defeat of the Elves. The fading elves retire to Tol Eressea and hide in the woods.
Men come to Tol Eressea and also Orcs, Dwarves, Gongs, Trolls etc. After the Battle of Ros the Elves faded with sorrow. They cannot live in air breathed by a number of Men equal to their own or grater; and ever as Men wax more powerful and numerous so the fairies fade and grow small and tenuous, filmy and transparent, but Men larger and more dense and gross. At last Men, or almost all, can no longer see the fairies.
The Gods now dwell in Valinor, and come scarcely ever to the world, being content with the restraining of the elements from utterly destroying Men. They grieve much at what they see; but Iluvatar is over all.
----------
* Ros: the capital of Tol Eressea
Nautar: the dwarves which are evil at this stage of mythology
Gongs: probably the goblins
I find it difficult to handle this discussion having not read the book gate7ole has. Yet, from these extracts above I highlighted a few things and I would like to put forward some relevant thoughts I had.

1/ I have noticed a difference in as far the Faring is concerned: first it is said the Elves depart from TE, but in the second extract they come to ME on the island. .... I was thinking: And what if they had come to ME only on their ships and the dark prophecy was completed? They wouldn't have had any place to hide... Do you think their race would then ceise to exist, providing that Men and the rest inhabitants of ME don't let them set foot on ME?
2/ The second highlighted portion from the above quotes: Why would the Elves need the help of Men? What would Men care whether the Elves, still remaining in ME, wanted to depart away with their kin? I just can't see who or what could have prevented and objected to this. What do you think?
3/ Another thought: The Elves, it is said, are willing to take Men to Valinor if they wish. But then it is told that a great battle is going to be in Valinor.... So, let's say Men have agreed to follow the Elves to Valinor and they reach the Blessed Realm and just as they start thinking, "Ah! Peace and bliss AT LAST!", all of a sudden they become involved in a terrible war. In this war Men in particular will be the creatures most slain by Melkor and his servants and most of them will perish..... So, please! What have the Elves ACTUALLY had in mind to invite Men to come with them to Valinor (and please, excuse me for my "black" humour!) ?!!!!!
4/ Another point: How do you understand that the Gods thought it was still not the right time for the faring but the Elves still departed. My question: Why would the Elves be in a hurry? What was it that make them not take the counsel of the Gods?
5/ And last: The battle of Ros (almost like my real name ;) ) - I just can't figure it out - Why would Men and the others want to fight the Elves? As for the Orcs - well, it can be explained...... But Men - against-Elves??????? What would be the reason? Could it be just because Men would act in fulfilling the orders of their new Master - Melkor?

I'd rather not comment on the Gods' behaviour and role in all this! :( I get so furious to see them being so uninvolved, apathetic, uninterested, selfish s*** of the **** ! (excuse me!)
 

gate7ole

Registered User
Joined
Sep 6, 2002
Messages
1,155
Reaction score
2
Very interesting points.
Indeed, why should the Elves need the aid of Men? Is it that Men will be the dominant race of ME at that time? I think it is more than this. The Elves have been diminishing from the time they awakened in Cuivienen (I don’t have the quote of this, but believe me it is told somewhere). They may have become stronger in mind, but their bodies are in a dwindling condition. The undying Valinor may have reduced this effect, but hasn’t eliminated it. The time of the Faring Forth –we have assumed- is taking place at a late time, and the results of this decline are greater. Furthermore, the peaceful life they have been living on TE by the safety provided by the Powers, has softened them. On the contrary, Men continue to expand, usurp the Sun and dominate all the lands. If the Elves want to succeed with this mission they absolutely need their aid.

Why do the Elves hurry? I think that is obvious. They are eager to help their kin, the lost elves still lingering on ME. They may even feel guilty to have left them unaided for so many years. But why do the Valar see that the time is not ready? Who knows! Maybe they see that Mankind is yet immature to choose the right side.

The two battles provide some very interesting insight. We have an expedition of the Elves. Then we have the choice of Men. Whatever choice they make, there will be a War. Either at Ros, or at Erumani. And the Great End will come. See how important is the role of Men? They will define the future. Isn’t there a resemblance with the gift of Men not to be bound to the Music of the Ainur, or with the sudden stop of the vision at Ainulindale, or with the Valar not knowing the End? Only Ilúvatar knows it.

Finally about the Gods’ behaviour, we shouldn’t be so strict. Remember that their intervention with the Elves in the end caused many misfortunes. Ulmo was wisely from the beginning against their bringing to Valinor. Maybe they decided to act differently with Men and let them live outside their lands (and aid them from time to time: Numenor, Istari)

Please, remember that all the above are based on Tolkien’s premature ideas and should be accepted as such.
 

Lhunithiliel

Fëanorean
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
3,138
Reaction score
7
Thank you, gate7ole for your answer and comments! It's so nice I still have someone to talk to in this Guild! :(

Anyway, about Elves leaving ME < > Men's permission - what I had in mind is: Why would Men have anything against those almost extinct creatures leaving ME forever? Why would Men forbid or prevent the Elves from leaving ME?
You say, they might have become the dominant race in ME. Exactly! I too think that having been left to develop as an independant race in ME, they have become dominant over the territories of ME. And I can assume that they must have had hard times in establishing their dominion, fighting Melkor's servants and the elements of Nature WITHOUT the help of any superior powers. This must have made them stronger.....And IMO a person who has a strong character knows generocity and justice. Therefore, I somehow don't expect Men to prevent the Elves in ME join their kin that have come for them on TE. On the contrary, I think, they will aid them and I can even suspect Men will be sorry to see the fairy creatures leave their earth..... At least I would have been, if I happened to live in those times :p
in your previous post I agree with Nenya Evenstar. Aman is considered to be not only undying, but even unchangable. Of course there was also a decay of time, but very slight (this whole matter is referred by Tolkien concerning the language stability in Valinor).

And from your latest post: Furthermore, the peaceful life they have been living on TE by the safety provided by the Powers, has softened them.
See? You too assume that the Elves have changed!!! ;)
The two battles provide some very interesting insight. We have an expedition of the Elves. Then we have the choice of Men. Whatever choice they make, there will be a War. Either at Ros, or at Erumani. And the Great End will come. See how important is the role of Men? They will define the future.
Sad! If Men are to define future through and by wars .... I don't know... It seems so true for us as a race! I think the Professor has too had a similar opinion that's why he wrote this.... Yet, on the other hand, taking into consideration that the writings we are now discussing on are from an earlier period, one can find some slight trace of hope and optimism in the later works...
Will Mankind ever find another way of evolution and development and improvement without necessarilly going into wars?!... Or is it in our genes?... If this is the case.... Where does this lust for fighting come from?..... Or is it some universal law? As they are called "the laws of Nature and Universe"?

In the course of these thoughts... See how most of us protest against the Valar's inactivity? Somehow unconsciously we praise actions = war actions (in most cases, unfortunately!). But war actions strengthen a race and it lives and exists and develops... On the other hand, observing the Elves - they had stopped fighting ages ago and had dedicated themselves to knowledge, poetry, wisdom ...whatever... BUT they have faded away as a race....

Or is it just a point of view from human's perspective...? Have you ever thought HOW the Elves and/or the Valar/Gods might look upon our race and how they might perceive us and our development as a race?
 

Húrin Thalion

King of Crisps
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
395
Reaction score
1
Location
Allsvenskan
At last I have time to post here!

My main point is on the issue of men being evil. I will come to the conclusion now and explain myself later. Men would be corrupted but not beyond repair, the wisdom and power of the elves would maybe be able to heal them. The reasons for why I think that men would be corrupted are many, here are the chief ones. Firstly men have shown in their history that they are easy to corrupt and fast to believe in the easy and tempting way. Furthermore the information that is passed on through the generations is both lost and distrusted. Take for example the account of Isildur and the finding of the Ring of power. That was lost in the archives of Gondor for thousands of years! The men in Numenor never saw the might and glory of the Powers, so they simply abandoned their worship for them. That is sadly enough the way of our race, all that is distant is forgotten, we haste from one work to another and tend to forget what is above our petty lifetimes.

Morover the pride and dignity of the Dúnedain would be forgotten through the years and tough the elves would not be forgotten they would seem not like a shadow but as the ents were viewed in Rohan before the war of the Ring. I would however think that men who dwelled in places that elves formerly live would not be as corrupted since it takes a long time for a land to forget the elves if they have once lived and laboured there. Think of the stones in Eriador that though more than an age had passed since the destruction of Ost-in-Edhil had not yet forgotten. This spirit would live on and affect the future inhabitants, I think.

And as for the elves getting weaker in body G70 I have a memory of your quote but cannot find it. It says however that the elves' bodies were almost made light and kind of esoteric by the strong flame that lived within them (think of Fëanor). Does this mean that the younger elves would be as affected as the older who awoke at Cuiviénen (fair name)?

There is a chance that the elves could heal at least some of the men with strong Numenorean origin?

Húrin Thalion
 

Lhunithiliel

Fëanorean
Joined
Jul 26, 2002
Messages
3,138
Reaction score
7
TIME FOR A NEW GAME

What if Feanor had received the consent of the Valar to freely leave Aman?
*************************************************
A bright beam of light pierced the early morning dusk in the hall. It rested gently upon the face of a man, who was sleeping in quite an unusual place. He was sitting in a large and exquisitely wood-carved armchair, but he was bent forward and his head was resting on the tabletop of a broad round oak table right in front. The whole table was covered by various things as well as by scrolls, books and sheets of paper with strange drawings on, some of these used as a pillow for the sleeping man.

The face, lit by the sunbeam, was very handsome and tender but also bearing those stern and rigid lines of the masculine beauty. His hair was raven-dark, freely falling on broad shoulders.

Feanor, for it was his face, stirred, troubled by the bright light and opened his eyes. These were piercingly bright eyes that at this brief moment of awakening were still filled with peace and tenderness. His mind needed a few moments more to return to reality from the dream-gardens of Lorien. Then the expression in those eyes hardened and Feanor lifted up his head from the table.

He stood up and stretched his body. It was a magnificently well-built body – athletic, tall and strong. Feanor approached the window and flung it open. For a moment he enjoyed the warmth of the streaming sunlight and then he cast a glance at the view. There lay a green peaceful valley and in the far distance he could see dark blue mountains. Sweet music was coming from somewhere and the air was filled with tender fragrances of flowers and herbs.
But this beauty did not bring joy to the Elf-king. His mind searched for another that he had longed to see so much – the views of the lands to the East, the lands called by the Valar the Middle Earth. He had heard and read a lot about those lands! And his mind was at rest no more! Green and rich were the valleys there, high and majestic were the mountains, deep and long were the rivers… And vast were the horizons of those lands!

“Such a beautiful home for the Eldar!”, he thought. “Every one of us will have a home where our children will grow and where the families will live happily… We can bring so much beauty and knowledge and crafts and skills to the Atani! We can befriend them and live in peace with them…. We can unite and chase the despicable Morgoth far away from those lands… “

Feanor sighed. “What would my father say of that?”, he thought. “Will my brothers and my kin-folk follow me if I suggest we depart from Aman?” He was sure about his sons, though. They would follow him for they too desired to have their own kingdoms. So did the fair Galadriel. He knew it, although they had never talked. Too proud she was and too high she held her beautiful head! She had shown that she despised him but he could still read in her heart and he knew that those dreams that tormented his mind gave no peace to her too.

“Perhaps…,” he thought, “But this must come later. I shall have to speak to Manwe first! I shall have to receive his consent! And that of the other mighty Valar…. Will they grant it?”

Feanor, stepped towards the inside of the hall and looked at the scattered scrolls on the table. He tried to force his mind concentrate on his work from last night. In vain!

“I shall have to make up my mind and take the decision!”, Feanor thought. “It has to be soon!”
************
Your turn :)
 

Morgoth

Bauglir
Joined
Dec 13, 2002
Messages
185
Reaction score
0
Location
Thangorodrim
If the Valar allowed Feanor to leave Aman freely, it would suggest that the Valar would also aid Feanor to overcome Melkor and recover the Silmarils. If this had happened, however, then Melkor the Morgoth could have been defeated far quicker, and the ENTIRE history of Middle Earth would have to have been rewritten. The kingdoms of Elves may not have flourished as they did, and the coming of the Edain would have been unheralded. Sauron, the fallen Maia, may not have fallen from grace, and therefore leaving the entire LOTR timespan irrelevant. The One Ring may also never have existed. It is a difficult question to answer, and impossible to see all ends of the outcome.
 

Thread suggestions

Top