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Turin destroys Morgoth?

Gloer

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I have read from various threads that when Morgoth enters back to Arda through the gates of night there will be a final "Armageddon" battle in which all men and elves shall fight against all bad creatures.

The prophecy says that Turin - yes TURIN - shall avenge his father and his fate set by Morgoth. He shall slay the mighty foe of the world!

Where is this prophecy from?
Don't you think it is unlikely that even a resurrected Turin could ever manage that?
 

Greymantle

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I have but one word for this: bah!
Even if someone comes forward with evidence and support for this preposterous idea, I will not accept it! :p
 

Cian

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But note that the last version of Túrin's fate (prophesy by Andreth rather) is that he will return to slay Ancalagon the Black at the Last Battle, which in this context refers to the great battle at the end of the Elder Days.

The fate of Túrin has old roots, back to the early Tale of Turambar in The Book of Lost Tales where:

"... but Turambar indeed shall stand beside Fionwë in the Great Wrack, and Melko and his drakes shall curse the sword of Mormakil."

The idea saw revision of degrees, tinkering ~ most folk quote a version of the prophecy of Mandos from The Lost Road. One example of apparent revision: the passage including mention of Túrin as 'a son of the Valar' received a large X from Tolkien ~ and as said, in the last reappearance of the "mysterious and fluctuating idea" (C. Tolkien) it is foretold by Andreth that Túrin will return from the dead, and his last deed within the World Circles was to be the slaying of the Great Dragon.
 

The Tall Hobbit

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Here is the version of the "prophecy" which appears in The Lost Road:


Thus spake Mandos in prophecy, when the Gods sat in judgement in Valinor, and the rumour of his words was whispered among all the Elves of the West. When the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth, seeing that the guard sleepeth, shall come back through the Door of Night out of the Timeless Void; and he shall destroy the Sun and Moon. But Earendel shall descend upon him as a white and searing flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the Last Battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Morgoth, and on his right hand shall be Fionwe, and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, coming from the halls of Mandos; and the black sword of Turin shall deal unto Morgoth his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall Earth be broken and re-made, and the Silmarils shall be recovered out of Air and Earth and Sea; for Earendel shall descend and surrender that flame which he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall take the Three Jewels and bear them to Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth. And the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world. In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Turin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar.
Tolkien later rejected this version of Turin's ultimate destiny; but at the time when The Lord of the Rings was written, this was the way that he intended to end The Silmarillion.
 

Mithrandir_II

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I am almost positive it also appears in HoMe IV The Shaping of Middle-Earth but cannot look it up cause I don't have the book here with me. :(
 

The Tall Hobbit

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Actually, The Shaping of Middle-Earth contains two different version of the passage:

When the world is much older, and the Gods weary, Morgoth will come back through the Door, and the last battle of all will be fought. Fionwe will fight Morgoth on the plain of Valinor, and the spirit of Turin shall be beside him; it shall be Turin who with his black sword will slay Morgoth, and thus the children of Hurin shall be avenged.

In those days the Silmarils shall be recovered from sea and earth and air, and Maidros shall break them and Belaurin with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and the great light shall come forth again, and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled so that it goes out over the world, and Gods and Elves and Men shall grow young again, and all their dead awake.

Thus spake the prophecy of Mandos, which he declared in Valmar at the judgement of the Gods, and the rumour of it was whispered among all the Elves of the West: when the world is old and the Powers grow weary, then Morgoth shall come back through the Door out of the Timeless Night; and he shall destroy the Sun and the Moon, but Earendel shall come upon him as a white flame and drive him from the airs. Then shall the last battle be gathered on the fields of Valinor. In that day Tulkas shall strive with Melko, and on his right shall stand Fionwe and on his left Turin Turambar, son of Hurin, Conqueror of Fate, and it shall be the black sword of Turin that deals unto Melko his death and final end; and so shall the children of Hurin and all Men be avenged.

Thereafter shall the Silmarils' be recovered out of sea and earth and air; for Earendel shall descend and yield up that flame that he hath had in keeping. Then Feanor shall bear the Three and yield them unto Yavanna Palurien; and she will break them and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees, and a great light shall come forth; and the Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the light goes out all over the world. In that light the Gods will again grow young, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Iluvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy speaks not, save of Turin only, and him it names among the Gods.
 

Gwaihir

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Tolkien seems to have been pretty set on this version of events. Turin gets the assignment in the early writings and it stays that way throughout many other revisions. Certainly he deserves it, but it seems unexpected. Still, one has to wonder, "why does it have to be Turin?"

I suspect that it has something to do with Tolkien's feelings on the oft mentioned but never resolved "purpose of Illuvatar for Men", but that's just a wild intuition. I also suspect that he realized that there were "problems" with this part of the story; such as "where was the spirit of Turin waiting all this time?" Only Tuor, I believe, was admitted to the halls of Mandos. So where was Turin hanging out?

And how is it that a Valar can be "Killed" at all? The Black Sword was broken when Turin died, I supose that the spirit of Turin is wielding the spirit of the sword (?)

All of this, and Tolkien's uncertainty about the true "meaning" of this passage, may well have been why he chose to drop it.

Still, it's an interesting thought, no?
 

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