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Unfallen Men?

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Taking all things into consideration, especially the text 'Aman' in Myth's Transformed, would Men Unfallen have been fit to live in Aman?
 

Beleg

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No, No man, fallen or unfallen was fit to live in Aman.

Myths Transformed, Aman and Men

Now these things are but matters of thought, and might-have-beens; for Eru and the Valar under Him have not permitted Men as they are to dwell in Aman. Yet at least it may be seen that Men in Aman would not escape the dread of death, but would have it in greater degree and for long ages. And moreover, it seems probable that death itself, either in agony or horror, would with Men enter into Aman itself
according to the Eldar men's fea was destined to depart from Arda.

. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar
 

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So would you agree that Men Unfallen could not have lived in Arda Unmarred?

So, do you think men were made for Arda Marred?

Also, do you think elves were made for Arda Marred?
 

Beleg

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So would you agree that Men Unfallen could not have lived in Arda Unmarred?
No. Aman was a land Valar created for themselves to live in, it wasn't even designed for The Eldar.

Aman, Myths Transformed
But the Eldar were not native to Aman, which had not been, by the Valar, designed for them. In Aman, before their coming, there had dwelt only the Valar and their lesser kindred the Maiar
Aman therefore would be different from Arda Unmarred since it would be created to fit the needs of Valar, who were eternal and could adapt themselves to any style of living. But in Arda Marred it was changed a little to accumulate the Elves, who also were immortal within Arda that is; and in Aman the withering of their Hroa slowed down.

Aman, Myths Transformed says,

But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of the life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.
Now men's Hroa could have also been given that speed, but what would have happened to Men's fea which was Fated from the start to depart from Arda?
The answer iself lies in Aman, Myths Transformed
But let us suppose that the 'blessing of Aman' was also accorded to Men. What then? Would a great good be done to them? Their bodies would still come swiftly to full growth. In the seventh part of a year a Man could be born and become full-grown, as swiftly as in Aman a bird would hatch and fly from the nest. But then it would not wither or age but would endure in vigour and in the delight of bodily living. But what of that Man's fëa? Its nature and 'doom' could not be changed, neither by the health of Aman nor by the will of Manwë himself. Yet it is (as the Eldar hold) its nature and doom under the will of Eru that it should not endure Arda for long, but should depart and go elsewhither, returning maybe direct to Eru for another fate or purpose that is beyond the knowledge or guess of the Eldar.
Very soon then the fëa and hröa of a Man in Aman would not be united and at peace, but would be opposed, to the great pain of both. The hröa being in full vigour and joy of life would cling to the fëa, lest its departure should bring death; and against death it would revolt as would a great beast in full life either flee from the hunter or turn savagely upon him. But the fëa would be as it were in prison, becoming ever more weary of all the delights of the hröa, until they were loathsome to it, longing ever more and more to be gone, until even those matters for its thought that it received through the hröa and its senses became meaningless. The Man would not be blessed, but accursed; and he would curse the Valar and Aman and all the things of Arda. And he would not willingly leave Aman, for that would mean rapid death, and he would have to be thrust forth with violence. But if he remained in Aman, what should he come to, ere Arda were at last fulfilled and he found release? Either his fëa would be wholly dominated by the hröa, and he would become more like a beast, though one tormented within. Or else, if his fëa were strong, it would leave the hröa, Then one of two things would happen: either this would be accomplished only in hate, by violence, and the hroa, in full life, would be rent and die in sudden agony; or else the fëa would in loathing and without pity desert the hroa, and it would live on, a witless body, not even a beast but a monster, a very work of Melkor in the midst of Aman, which the Valar themselves would fain destroy
But Arda unmarred would have been different; It would have been like Arda of later ages, without the poision of Melkor present in its very flesh and effecting those who were made of the flesh of Arda. It wouldn't have been like Aman; It would have been made in such a way as to accumulate men, whose fea wasn't longevial like Elves.

Myths Trasformed tells us the concept of Arda Unmarred,

'Arda Unmarred' did not actually exist, but remained in thought - Arda without Melkor, or rather without the effects of his becoming evil; but is the source from which all ideas of order and perfection are derived. 'Arda Healed' is thus both the completion of the 'Tale of Arda' which has taken up all the deeds of Melkor, but must according to the promise of Ilúvatar be seen to be good; and also a state of redress and bliss beyond the 'circles of the world'.)
Therefore, the question lies whether Morgoth was able to corrupt the fea of Men to such an extent that its life was effected?
No, i don't think so; men from the start were fated to die, although I belief life in Arda Unmarred wouldn't have been as fast as on Arda Marred; the hastening effected caused by Morgoth's influence, but Men would still be able to live upon it because it would designed to accumulate their life form..
 

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It wouldn't have been like Aman; It would have been made in such a way as to accumulate men, whose fea wasn't longevial like Elves.
On what do you base your opinion that Aman was different than Arda Unmarred in such a way that men could not live in Aman even if unfallen, yet they would have been able to live in Arda Unmarred?

PS: The text speaks of fallen men, that they could not have lived in Aman... but is there no way that Unfallen Men, even if destined to leave Arda, would have been different in such a way that they could have lived there?
 

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Sure it is... I just mentioned 'Aman' to be sure it was taken into consideration.
 

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The position that the lifespan was reduced by Melkor? I mostly see people agreeing it was not so, and that Iluvatar himself did this if it happened at all.

As for the Tale of Adanel - Most people seem to think it has a lot truth, but some people hardly trust it.

However it says in Note 9 (Author's Note on his Commentary) to the Athrabeth that there existed different versions of this tale but they all had this in common: The disaster was caused by men taking Morgoth as King or King and God. So, it may be that not all of the accounts agree'd regarding the supposed voice of Eru and the lessening of years. But men did Fall... JRRT says so, so it remains that men were changed somehow. Myself, I am not sure exactly what I think this change was... I tend to think it was more spiritual than physical but people disagree.
 

Beleg

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Aragil read this thread, specially the first few pages:

Numenorean Life-span

On what do you base your opinion that Aman was different than Arda Unmarred in such a way that men could not live in Aman even if unfallen, yet they would have been able to live in Arda Unmarred?
On the point that Men's fea from the begining was fated to depart from the earth and due to the happiness, bliss, relatively slow aging of Hroa [Men's hroa would have been needed to be tuned with Aman time], the Hroa would want to spend greater time on Aman and the hroa and fea would thus enter into a continous dispute.

The text speaks of fallen men, that they could not have lived in Aman... but is there no way that Unfallen Men, even if destined to leave Arda, would have been different in such a way that they could have lived there?
I don't think so, what do you think about it??

I more or less agree with the Tale of Adanel, except that I don't believe All men accepted Morgoth as their Lord in the begining.
 

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First - I believe Men were probably made for Arda Marred. I believe this because I believe the Blessed realm where they where unfit to live, was pretty much Arda Unmarred, it was slightly tainted but that aside was is not Arda Unmarred? So I also believe that Men would not be able to live in Arda Unmarred.

But if Men were not created for Arda Marred then Men unfallen should have been able to live in Aman/Arda Unmarred.

In 'Aman and Mortal Men' we get a description of what it would be like for men to dwell in Aman, the body would wish to stay and the spirit that by nature leaves Arda would be held in prison by the body. Now men where changed somehow by the fall... could it be that it was the Fall which makes the body so that it wish to stay in Aman rather than either depart with the spirit or release the spirit? The problem is that we really don't know much about what the Men were like before the fall, or what they would have come to be like if they had not fallen. So, I think it should be possible that unfallen Men would be such that they could live in bliss, at least if you go with the idea that Men were not created for Arda Marred.

If you believe Men were made for Arda Unmarred, but could not have lived in Aman even if they had not fallen, then I would ask you why? But I know your answer (you already gave it): Aman was not Arda Unmarred. So now I ask, in what way was it different or what do you base this opinion on? But I know now what you base it on: the belief Men were not created for Arda Marred, from which it must follow that Men could live in Arda Unmarred. If they could live in Arda Unmarred but cannot live in Aman then Aman must not be the same as Arda Unmarred therefore you believe Aman was not the same as Arda Unmarred. Is this your reasoning?

So, maybe you can see where it seems to be that your reasoning goes in a circle and avoids the question: In which way was Aman different from Arda Unmarred that would allow unfallen men to live in one and not the other?

This reasoning also indicates that you see no way that the Fall caused Men to change in such a way that they become beings unable to dwell in Aman. Is this so?

So I think we should take a look at what is said of Aman and try to figure how it differs from Arda Unmarred (excluding the fact that it saw a bit of Morgoth's taint).

We have the Valar refering to Middle-earth as Arda Marred... saying of the Eldar that they come from Arda Marred... and we have this statement from Letter 246 (also given in part in Morgoth's Ring):
"So he [Frodo] went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position of littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of 'Arda Unamrred', the Earth unspoiled by evil."

Of course there are other references but I can not recall them at the moment... if you know of any let me know and we can look at them. I have to say though that my overall impression from the references I have read has been that Aman is pretty much Arda Unmarred, and differs from it only in that the Eldar from Arda Marred live there and the land is not entirely without the evil of Morgoth. Something has left you with a different impression, and I am wondering what that is?

I more or less agree with the Tale of Adanel, except that I don't believe All men accepted Morgoth as their Lord in the begining.
Hmmm interesting. Are you referring to the Druedain?
 

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This thread is exactly one of the major reasons why I love TTF. I always learn something new, read a new angle to look at things written.

I have always thought that death was a gift given to Men by Ilúvatar. An end that they would come to even if they had not 'fallen'. Therefore, I have always thought that it does not really matter if Arda was Marred or Unmarred. The fëar of Men was not and is not bound to Arda, but is under the judgement of Ilúvatar.
Why?
Because the way I see it, there are two reasons:
First: I do not think that Morgoth have the power to un-make the designs of Ilúvatar. After all, he is only an offspring of Ilúvatar's thoughts!
And the tale of Adanhel as given is in my opinion an attempt of Men to explain to themselves that they were originally of the same stature as the Firstborn. An attempt to reason away that they were never given an immortal life.

Second: I have always believed the concept of Arda Unmarred as an utopia. Melkor as all the other Ainur, was an offspring of Ilúvatar's thought. What was so special about Melkor was that he was an offspring mainly of Ilúvatar's dark sides. (Yes, I know that this has been discussed before.) And throughout the Music of the Ainur, Ilúvatar knew very well that Melkor was not totally within his own preffered limits. Therefore the rebuke: And thou Melkor, shall see that... etc, etc.
Remember that the coming of the Children were conceived by Ilúvatar alone, after the discord of Melkor.

So to round up:
Men and Elves, both fallen and unfallen were made for Arda Marred, as there were never any "other" Arda available.

But after reading what others of you have said before me, I realize that I might have been wrong. But I could of course also be right...;)
 

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Beleg, sorry about my last post... I missed one your posts! The one where you say Aman was not like Arda Unmarred since it was made for the Valar. However, I still do not see how this makes it any more different than Arda Unmarred.

So to round up:
Men and Elves, both fallen and unfallen were made for Arda Marred, as there were never any "other" Arda available.
Great post and you put forth a good reason, Arvedui. However, the reason I question this regarding elves is that we do find so many references to the way the elves would be in Arda Unmarred, but we don't get that for men. Now this could be in part because these were to be elvish histories and so much regarding men is left a mystery, but...

Quotes from Morgoth's Ring:
It must be understood that what has yet been said concerning Eldarin marriage refers to its right course and nature in a world unmarred...
'Marriage of the Eldar', he said, 'is by and for the Living, and for the duration of life. Since the Elves are by nature permanent in life within Arda, so also is their unmarred marriage.
... in their natural courses in days untroubled, and in accordance with their true nature unmarred.
The Music of the Ainur had contained no prevision of the death of Elves and the existance of their 'houseless' fear, since according to their nature they were to be immortal within the life of Arda.
Some bits from Morgoth's Ring. There's a lot more... these are just to get point across. So it seems the elves were designed for Arda Unmarred since there is always reference to their right nature. There was no death for them in the music of the Ainur, and it is because they live in the tainted Arda that they do not get to live according to their right nature. When we hear anything about the right nature of men, it is always something that allegedly existed before Melkor turned them evil. With men, any reference I find to their right nature, is refering not to how they would have been in Arda Unmarred but how they would have been if not for the fall and how they believe they were before Melkor came among them. So if the cause elves being unable to live according to their right nature is Arda Marred, and the cause for men not living acccording to their right nature is the Melkor worship (not the taint of Arda in general!) it seems men were made for Arda Marred and elves were not. If elves had been designed for Arda Marred, death would not be unnatural for them.


So, the elves do not get to experience their right nature because they are in Arda Marred, but men do not experience their right nature because of their fall. Could it be?
 

Arvedui

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It could certainly be.

In the case of the Firstborn, it would also explain why the Valar did not comprehend the death of Miriel.
It could also explain why a long time passed before Mandos was given the power to summon the fëar of those that died.

Now, to Men:
I still think that Man's tradition, as voiced in the Athrabeth and the Tale of Adanhel, is just some sort of excuse that they have made up to explain to themselves why Men die, and Elves don't.

They wake up in a world were there is already a human-like life-form. But they discover that there is a major difference between the two kinds: One dies (themselves), the others are immortal. How to explain this, when you don't have any connection with someone that can explain it to you?
You make an explanation.

On the other hand, you might be very right. Quite some time passed from the moment the Firstborn awoke until the Secondborn awoke. Ilúvatar may have used that time to think through his design concerning Men, and decide that he needed to change things a bit. So he made Men with fëar that were not bound to Arda!

That would of course require him to be sufficiently involved in Arda, which he was not!;)
 

Claro Del Rosario

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The position that the lifespan was reduced by Melkor? I mostly see people agreeing it was not so, and that Iluvatar himself did this if it happened at all.

As for the Tale of Adanel - Most people seem to think it has a lot truth, but some people hardly trust it.

However it says in Note 9 (Author's Note on his Commentary) to the Athrabeth that there existed different versions of this tale but they all had this in common: The disaster was caused by men taking Morgoth as King or King and God. So, it may be that not all of the accounts agree'd regarding the supposed voice of Eru and the lessening of years. But men did Fall... JRRT says so, so it remains that men were changed somehow. Myself, I am not sure exactly what I think this change was... I tend to think it was more spiritual than physical but people disagree.
Men was created originally with the gift of mortality but with long lifespan like the Numenorians but their lifespan was cut short by Eru as a solution for falling into false worship of Melchor (or Sauron who masqueraded as Melchor) as Lord and God. But Eru said men remain as his own and each of them shall come to him to know who lie: Eru or Melchor a mere creature of Eru - from the Tale of Adanel. But Andreth misunderstood the statement of Eru in the T ale of Adanel as men originally possessing everlasting life. Eru (the VOICE) merely said, "I will shorten your life" and not "I will change your nature." Finrod was right in believing the Eru does not change the nature of his children.

Eru shortened fallen men's life so that their life of worshipping, service and suffering under Melchor and his minions would be cut off short. Eru gave men the gift of mortality from the very start (this is really a gift and not a mockery or a sarcastic euphemism for curse) since Eru's intention is for men to experience life in Arda Marred for a short while giving them freedom to have their life spent in whatever direction they wish and then afterwards causing their spirits (fear) to return to him after death to be with the other Ainur in the timeless halls to sing the second music of the Ainur. The gift of mortality is given to all men (regardless of whether they live their life as good or evil) just as the gift of immortality with respect to the longetivity of Arda is given to the Elves regardless of their deeds.

Men was created originally with the gift of mortality but with long lifespan like the Numenorians but their lifespan was cut short by Eru as a solution for falling into false worship of Melchor (or Sauron who masqueraded as Melchor) as Lord and God. But Eru said men remain as his own and each of them (thus, all men) shall come to him to know who lies: Eru or Melchor a mere creature of Eru - this is from the "Tale of Adanel."

But Andreth misunderstood this statement of Eru in the "Tale of Adanel" as men originally possessing everlasting life. Eru (the VOICE) merely said, "I will shorten your life" and not "I will change your nature." Finrod was right in believing that Eru does not change the nature of his children.

Eru shortened fallen men's life so that their life of worship, service and suffering under Melchor would also be cut off short. Eru gave men the gift of mortality from the very start (this is really a gift and not a mockery or a sarcastic euphemism for curse) since Eru's intention is for men to experience life in Arda Marred even for a short while giving them freedom to have their life spent in whatever direction they wish to go and then afterwards cause their spirits (fear) to return to him after death to be with the other Ainur in the timeless halls and in the future to sing the second music of the Ainur. The gift of mortality is given to all men (regardless of whether they live their life as good or evil) just as the gift of immortality with respect to the longetivity of Arda is given to the Elves regardless of their deeds. Finrod believes this is for a purpose. It is to used men as solution to healing Arda. Perhaps with the experience of life in Arda men would learn how to sing the second music in harmony with Eru.

There is truth in the "Tale of Adanel" since Eru said his intention is for men to dominate Middle Earth which indeed happened. The Silmarillion indeed mentioned that the very first men who entered Beleriand where escaping from the shadow in the East (Melchor) from where they came from. It tallies with the "Tale of Adanel" regarding the story of the first fall of men. These men who came to Beleriand are the descendants of the few men who repented for allowing themselves to be deceived by Melchor whom the Silmarillion mentioned as having journeyed to the East to meet the first men in response to the reports of his spies. These men going West were being pursued by majority of men still under the spell of Melchor who feared him and thought that by attempting to kill those who rebelled against Melchor would assuage Melchor's wrath and this deed might save them from his anger.

Andreth also mentioned that the first men who entered Beleriand, to escape from the Dark Lord in the East, later found out that he is the same Dark Lord who resides in the North being sieged by the Elves. Theirs is the case of a people who just came out of the frying pan who eventually fell into the fire.
 
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