Were the Quendi of Valinor of Arda Unmarred?

[Elfarmari]

This is a topic which I proposed as a debate topic but was decided to be too obscure:

Morgoth's Ring
Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.

Would the Eldar of Aman be untainted or is this taint something inherent in the Children of Iluvatar?

 

[Confusticated]

I would say the question is really two questions, since I think the answer to both parts is no. They would be tainted, but not because it is inherent in them by their original nature as designed but because they were born in a tainted world. Even the Eldar who went to Aman brought this stain there with them, and even though Aman is called Arda Unamarred... it was not free from evil and curruption because of that. A good place to read about this is the Debate of the Valar in HoME X.

 

[Elfarmari]

This is the impression that I have on the subject (at least from what I've read): Morgoth diminished himself by putting his power into the physical substance of Arda itself (hence the term 'Morgoth's Ring' for Arda). Because of this 'melkor ingrediant', the hroa of the Quendi born in Middle Earth were tainted. In Aman, there was no Melkor ingrediant. While this did not mean that Aman was free of evil, the substance of Aman was untainted. Following my own logic, I came to the conclusion that once the Eldar were in Aman, at least the hroa of their descendents would no longer have this taint.

I haven't read all of the HoME, so I'm sure someone could explain more about this. . .

 

[Confusticated]

hmm... there is one statement that comes to mind that does address the amount of time an elf from Middle-earth would dwell in Aman before being clear of the curruption of Middle-earth:

from FM 2
Wherefore those whose being began in Arda, and who moreover were by nature a union of spirit and body, drawing the sustenance of the latter from Arda Marred, must ever be, in some degree, liable to grief, to do or to suffer things unnatural; and though dwelling in Aman might be a guard against this evil, it was not a full cure, unless in long ages.

But it still doesn't address the question of descendants. I would think they would inherent some taint from their parents... and that this perhaps grows less with each generation?

It could be that the rebellion of the Noldor and the evil deeds such as kinslayng in Aman, or even the shadow in Feanor's mind, things which happened among elves who had not been born in Middle-earth, were ultimately due to Melkor walking among them, and to the taint brough to Aman by their parents. For example we could say Feanor fell to evil both because of Melkor's influence, but also very much because of what did happen to his mother (which is blamed on the shadow of Melkor, though if I recall correctly Miriel was born in Aman? But even so, her parents would have, I think, passed some taint on to her). So one tainted elf would effect the others around him. Looking at it this way, it could have been very long time after Melkor left Aman that Valinor was without his shadow.

The Vanyar who had dwelt most in the light of the Trees which had healing power over Melkor's curruption, did not listen to Melkor. It could well be that had the Noldor remained in the Light, they would have been cleaned of something which allowed them to be stirred up by Melkor. This could be something that would gradually disapear among individuals dwelling in Aman, and grow to nothing as the generations pass. That is what I tend to believe anyhow. So yes, I think there could perhaps come a time when the elves of Aman would be entirely free of evil.

 

[Thorondor_]

Following my own logic, I came to the conclusion that once the Eldar were in Aman, at least the hroa of their descendents would no longer have this taint.

Seeing that in a corrupted world even the valar can at least err, I would say all the Quendi are affected by Melkor.

 

[Alcuin]

The hröar even of the Eldar born in Valinor could not be wholly untainted, because the hröar of their forebears came from Middle-earth, and they were already tainted. Since the First Kindred propagate as do the Second Kindred, their bodies must of necessity pass through the bodies of their mothers, and they must have been impregnated by the bodies of their fathers, and so the “Morgoth-element” of Arda would be in them from conception. If many generations of Elves arose in Valinor, then this element might become smaller and smaller; but it could not be eliminated altogether. Even in Valinor, the Elves were of Arda-marred.

Perhaps, if their hröar were completely consumed by their fëar, they might become free of this taint altogether; but ironically, only the Lingerer Elves of Middle-earth met this fate. Another possibility is that those who were released from Mandos were also free of the Morgoth-taint: for instance, Glorfindel might have been free of it when he departed Valinor for Middle-earth; but as he dwelled in Middle-earth, he had to slowly absorb some of this taint yet again.

(The absorption of a Morgoth-taint by eating, drinking, and breathing in Middle-earth might in part explain how the Istari, who were brave and faithful Maiar in their origins, fell away from their efforts to guide Men and Elves to resist Sauron.)

 

[Ponte]

But after a while Niënna came to Manwë, and he said:'Lord of Aman, it is now made clear that the death of Míriel was an evil of Arda Marred, for with the coming hither of the Eldar the Shadow hath found an entrance even into Aman

HoME X The Later Quenta Silmarillion

This rather clearly shows that the Quendi of Aman were Marred and tainted by the Shadow.

 

[Grond]

HoME X The Later Quenta Silmarillion

This rather clearly shows that the Quendi of Aman were Marred and tainted by the Shadow.

I'm not so sure. The Quendi were indeed Eldar... but were they what brought evil into it? I don't recall any act of any kind by the Quendi that would earn them that title.

Cheers,

grond

 

[Gothmog]

I'm not so sure. The Quendi were indeed Eldar... but were they what brought evil into it? I don't recall any act of any kind by the Quendi that would earn them that title.

Cheers,

grond

Saying that the Quendi were the ones that brought the shadow into Aman is not giving them the blame. It just so happens that the Valar in calling the Quendi to Aman themselves allowed entry of the shadow. After the unnatural death of Miriel in Aman the Valar debated what had happened and what should be done.

And the Valar were greatly concerned to see that all their labour for the guarding of Valinor was of no avail, to keep out evil and the shadow of Melkor, if any thing, living or unliving, was brought thither out of Middle-earth and left free or unguarded; and they perceived at last how great was the power of Melkor in Arda, in the making of which as it was* his part was such that all things, save in Aman alone, had an inclination to evil and to perversion from their right forms and courses. Wherefore those whose being began in Arda, and who moreover were by nature a union of spirit and body, drawing the sustenance of the latter from Arda Marred, must ever be, in some degree, liable to grief, to do or to suffer things unnatural; and though dwelling in Aman might be a guard against this evil, it was not a full cure, unless in long ages. And with this thought a shadow passed over the hearts of the Valar, even in the noon-tide of the Blessed Realm, presage of the sorrows which the Children should bring into the world.

 

[Arvegil]

Isn't it fair to say that, as the Children of Iluvatar are the products of the Third Theme, and Melkor's corruption and contrariness are part of the integral nature of the Third Theme, that their nature is necessarily marred by Melkor's meddling?

 

[Gothmog]

Isn't it fair to say that, as the Children of Iluvatar are the products of the Third Theme, and Melkor's corruption and contrariness are part of the integral nature of the Third Theme, that their nature is necessarily marred by Melkor's meddling?

It is not really fair to say that. Elves and Men were not products of the Third Theme.

From The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë

For the Children of Ilúvatar were conceived by him alone; and they came with the third theme, and were not in the theme which Ilúvatar propounded at the beginning, and none of the Ainur had part in their making.

A better way to say it would be that as the Children of Iluvatar came with the Third Theme and that they arose and first lived in Middle-earth, then they could not avoid the corruption Melkor caused to be by his rebelion during The Music which by the time of the Children of Iluvatar was part of Middle-earth.