He [Dior] gave to his elder son the name Eluréd, that is said to have the same significance, but ended in the Bëorian word rêda 'heir'; to his second son he gave the name Elurín [note 8: 'Remembrance of Elu': containing Sindarin rîn from Common Eldarin rēnē < base REN 'recall, have in mind'.]
Her [Elwing’s] sons she named Elros and Elrond; and after the manner of her brothers the first ended in a Bëorian word, and the second in an Elvish.
Elros received a mortal fate; Elrond an immortal one, and their prophetic names reflect this: Elros is a ‘Man-name’ (having a Bëorian ending) and Elrond an ‘Elf-name’ (having an Elvish ending). Of the names of the sons of Dior, Eluréd is a ‘Man-name’ and Elurín an ‘Elf-name’, and it may be that if they had received the choice of mortality or immortality, Eluréd would have chosen mortality and Elurín immortality. Or, maybe Eluréd’s heart was with the kindred of Men and Elurín’s with the Elves, and thus they (maybe prophetically) received those names. But of course, they never got the chance to receive any choice:The names Elros and Elrond that Elwing gave to her sons were held prophetic, as many mother-names among the Eldar.
And maybe they would not have received any choice even if they had lived, as it was perhaps only Eärendil and Elwing and their children with whom the choice was concerned, not the other Half-elves, if any such had lived.Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, were both slain by the sons of Fëanor
But here, both names are wholly Elvish; none of them contain a Bëorian or Mannish ending. Does this mean that both chose immortality?Both [Elladan and Elrohir] signify elf+ man. Elrohir might be translated 'Elf-knight'; rohir being a later form of rochir 'horse-lord' from roch 'horse'+hir 'master': Prim. Elvish rokkō and khēr or kherū: High-elven rocco, hēr (hěru). Elladan might be translated 'Elf-Númenórean'. Adan (pl. Edain) was the Sindarin form of the name given to the 'fathers of men', the members of the Three Houses of Elf-friends, whose survivors afterwards became the Númenóreans, or Dúnedain.
Thus he changed -ros from being Sindarin to Bëorian in ‘The Problem of ros, and also made -wing and -réd Bëorian, but unfortunately the essay was abandoned; JRRT was forced to accept that -ros is Sindarin and wrote ‘most of this fails’; but if he had somehow found a way for it to work and completed the essay, maybe he would have made -rohir (adan seems the less likely alternative) Bëorian, and thus completed the system of naming of all the three brethren Eluréd and Elurín, Elros and Elrond, and Elrohir and Elladan?*rossē meant 'dew, spray (of fall or fountain)'
Thus they died at an early stage. It is tempting to think that also Elladan and Elrohir died: because they chose mortality.Eluréd and Elurín, before they came to manhood, were both slain by the sons of Fëanor
I suppose that this is to be taken to mean that no-one lived in Rivendell in Fourth Age 120 anymore. This means that Celeborn had passed over the Sea, and taken the sons of Elrond with him – or they had already died before. When Arwen comes to Lórien after the death of Elessar both Galadriel and Celeborn are gone – but maybe this line means that Celeborn also had passed over the Sea and not just gone to dwell in Imladris:the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made even in that day when we [Aragorn and Arwen] met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond where none now walk
One must remember that the children of Elrond, once they remained behind in Middle-earth when their father left, might have started to age in the same way as the Númenóreans (and thus Aragorn) did:Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.
Thus the children of Elrond, even though their father left, might have just continued to live without losing their vigour, and maybe this created a chance for them to still pass over the Sea and avoid mortality, if they just left before the first approach of “world-weariness”. But it would be a bit strange if they became Númenóreans physically after their father left, because they had never gone to Númenor and thus not received the gift of long life-span. But then again, JRRT seems to have changed the reason that the Númenóreans had a long life-span:Thus (as the Eldar) they [the Númenóreans] grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved "full-growth" they then aged, or "wore out," very much more slowly. The first approach of "world-weariness" was indeed for them a sign that their period of vigour was nearing its end.
There is also another line in ‘The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen’ that needs consideration:It is further expounded that the increase in the Númenórean span was brought about by assimilation of their mode of life to that of the Eldar
Why was Arwen a Queen of Elves? Were these the Elves of Greenwood that Legolas brought to Ithilien, which was a part of Gondor? Or was she a Queen of all Elves remaining in the North-West of Middle-earth (except perhaps those of Greenwood), which would mean that the sons of Elrond had passed over the Sea, because if they had not, then the elder of them should have the right to inherit the Elven kingdoms before Arwen, as the brothers were older than her.As Queen of Elves and Men she [Arwen] dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years in great glory and bliss
The fact that none of the inhabitants of Rivendell but Elladan and Elrohir went to the actual war could be taken to mean that only these two thought that it was their duty to partake. The war was mostly for Men to fight, and therefore, the sons of Elrond might have already chosen a mortal fate, though they did not become physically mortal yet, and thus they knew that they were going to live in Middle-earth for the rest of their lives, and so they felt that it was their duty to actively try to save it. Maybe you can compare their participation in the War of the Ring to the doom that was appointed to Arwen (though she did not become physically mortal yet) when she first saw Aragorn after a long time, before they plighted their troth upon Cerin Amroth:That is all of our kindred that could be gathered in haste; but the brethren Elladan and Elrohir have ridden with us, desiring to go to the war.
Something that speaks against this theory is the fact that Elrond was after all ready to send people from his household to set out with the Fellowship on the Quest:And thus it was that Arwen first beheld him again after their long parting; and as he came walking towards her under the trees of Caras Galadhon laden with flowers of gold, her choice was made and her doom appointed.
But the two last places seem very suitable for Elladan and Elrohir, and maybe Elrond was indeed thinking about them, and indeed at one stage of writing (see TI, ‘The Ring Goes South’), Erestor, being a Half-elf at that point, was to go in Pippin’s or Merry’s stead and represent the Half-elves (Legolas was to represent the Elves). The sons of Elrond had not yet emerged.'There remain two more to be found,' said Elrond. "These I will consider. Of my household I may find some that it seems good to me to send.'
Then at one point he dismisses Glorfindel quite resolutely:That is five. And Glorfindel, if he will come and lend us the wisdom of the Elves: we shall need it. That is six.'
But here it seems that he wanted only Hobbits to go plus Gandalf. Glorfindel did not return to the composition of the Nine Walkers after this, though, and it may be that JRRT intentionally left any Elf of Rivendell out of the Fellowship and kept Legolas in.
But here, the Rangers are not mentioned, but it may be that the brothers received help from them, because from this time henceforth, when the brethren were afield, there always seems to be explcit mention of the Rangers being with them, and in ‘Many Meetings’ the Rangers are mentioned in relation to Celebrían being taken captive:In 2509 Celebrían wife of Elrond was journeying to Lórien when she was waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and her escort being scattered by the sudden assault of the Orcs, she was seized and carried off. She was pursued and rescued by Elladan and Elrohir
But the sons of Elrond were most likely part of the force under Glorfindel that was sent out of Rivendell at the end of the Battle of Fornost in 1975:But her [Arwen’s] brothers, Elladan and Elrohir, were out upon errantry: for they rode often far afield with the Rangers of the North, forgetting never their mother's torment in the dens of the orcs.
This is actually the only time in the Third Age that a force of Rivendell was used in combat.At the same time [as the cavalry of Gondor overtook Witch-king] a force under Glorfindel the Elf-lord came up out of Rivendell.
And later in the days of Arassuil , Orcs, multiplying again in the Misty Mountains, begin to ravage the lands, and the Dúnedain and the sons of Elrond fought with them.
But Aragorn was only two years old when Arathorn went riding against the Orcs with the sons of Elrond
But when Estel was only twenty years of age, it chanced that he returned to Rivendell after great deeds in the company of the sons of Elrond‘The Last Debate’:‘The Houses of Healing’: And he [Aragorn] commanded that his banner should be furled; and he did off the Star of the North Kingdom and gave it to the keeping of the sons of Elrond.‘The Black Gate Opens’:another company of five hundred horse there should be, among which should ride the sons of Elrond with the Dúnedain and the knights of Dol AmrothFate: MORTALITY for bothBut in the front towards Mordor where the first bitter assault would come there stood the sons of Elrond on the left with the Dúnedain about them, and on the right the Prince Imrahil with the men of Dol Amroth tall and fair, and picked men of the Tower of Guard.
7) The sons of Elrond did not have any children.
‘The Shibboleth of Fëanor’:This line says that the lines of Fingolfin and Finarfin were continued in Arwen – it does not mention Elladan and Elrohir. This means that Elladan and Elrohir never had any children – which means that they probably chose mortality and died childless, as they quite surely would have had children had they chosen immortality.
Fate: MORTALITY for both
I'd like to point out, this is not necessarily so. Not all who had children gain them a mention. Merry, for instance. I always assumed he had children. They are not in the family trees, but he married, and there is no reason to believe his line ended.This line says that the lines of Fingolfin and Finarfin were continued in Arwen – it does not mention Elladan and Elrohir. This means that Elladan and Elrohir never had any children – which means that they probably chose mortality and died childless, as they quite surely would have had children had they chosen immortality.
I believe that 'The Shibboleth of Fëanor' is "commentary" by Tolkien, in which he explains and adds to his own stories; almost like Letters. It was not written story-internally. The first line in the essay reveals this:Also, if no history of them [Elladan and Elrohir] is known, it is possible that they did and the children just aren't mentioned. . .possibly because the children were born within the undying lands and out of mortal knowledge.
Tolkien is talking about his own literary creation here. So no mortal in Middle-earth wrote this just because he/she only knew that Arwen had children since she stayed in Middle-earth but not Elladan and Elrohir. So why does the line not mention Elladan and Elrohir? Why does it not say for example:The history of the Eldar is now fixed and the adoption of Sindarin by the Exiled Ñoldor cannot be altered.
But Tolkien perhaps wrote the line from a Middle-earth perspective after all, or he did not care if the sons had children or not; maybe the fact that the line continued in Arwen was the important thing for him.
This is a good point.After all, they [Elladan and Elrohir] spent time revenging her [Celebrían's] hurts. I think they would like to see her healed again.
The Adûnaic of Númenor was mainly derived from that [the language] of the most powerful and numerous people of 'the House of Hador'. This was related to the speech of Bëor's people who first entered Beleriand (probably about as nearly as Ñoldorin Quenya to Telerin of Valinor): communication between the two peoples was possible but imperfect, mainly because of phonetic changes in the Bëorian dialect.
The folk of Bëor continued to speak their own tongue among themselves with fair purity, though many Sindarin words were borrowed and adapted by them. [note 5: Not necessarily confined to names of things that had not before [been] known. In the nomenclature of later generations assimilation to the Eldarin modes, and the use of some elements frequent in Eldarin names, can be observed.]
Following Elronds departure they remainded in Rivendell where eventually Celeborn of Lorien came to dwell with them. Its possibly that they eventually passed over the sea to the undying lands.Mina Pitcher said:do elladan and elrohir get killed?
That epilogue may be found in Sauron Defeated, and is entitled, simply enough, “The Epilogue”. Anyone interested in Tolkien’s intended ending for the Lord of the Rings would do well to read it: it is even more poignant than the published version, which lacks this little glimpse into the life of Samwise Gamgee and his family, 18 years after the destruction of the Ring and 15 years following the departure of Frodo with Elrond &c. In the second (more finished) version of the chapter, Sam tells his daughter Elanor that when Aragorn and Arwen come to visit Arnor, a visit which Sam and his family have been commanded to attend, he expects to see “Elladan and Elrohir, who still live in Rivendell”.Hobbit-children were delightful, but I am afraid that the only glimpses of them in this book are found at the beginning of vol. I. An epilogue giving a further glimpse (thought if a rather exceptional family) has been so universally condemned that I shall not inter it. One must stop somewhere.
Ardamir’s scholarship on this eclipses mine: he has clearly thought about this longer and more carefully than I, despite my (it seemed to me) long consideration of the subject before I saw this thread. I will venture only this as a personal opinion and humbly offered, for I have nothing to back it up except my own preferences and inclinations. Literary balance and textual analysis might argue that one remained while the other departed for the Uttermost West; but I hope that both Elladan and Elrohir remained in Middle-earth and married into the Northern Dúnedain, strengthening the northern community of the Númenóreans, which was slowly dwindling toward extinction. I hope that their attachment to the Númenóreans of Arnor, their devotion to one another, and their love of their sister Arwen would incline them to stay behind and help renew the remaining Dúnedain.
Very interesting! I think both choose immortality. Remain for a while... Maybe they depatred over the sea after a while? They stay in Rivendell for a long - they keep the refuge of their father with other elves who still stay in the Middle earth. Celeborn also stayed in Middle earth after the departure of his wife - Galadriel but maybe he set sail over the sea in after years. Hm, I would say the brothers of Arwen Evenstar were waiting for her death. After her death they set sail over the sea.
So could this maybe mean that maybe Frodo had gained Arwen's immortal life and lived in Valinor forever as well? Maybe the same happened to Sam and Bilbo for Elrond's son's immortality...