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What of Samwise?

Parrot

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Another rhetorical. I wonder what Sam might have done if Gollum had never shown at the Cracks of Doom and Frodo refuses to throw the ring. He would assuredly try to persuade him and fail. Then what?

Would Sam's fealty to Frodo hold and he simply acquiesce or would the realization that the future of all ME hangs in the balance lend him the temerity to oppose his master and try to take the ring?

If so, would he be able to take it?

Having taken it, could he dispose of it any more than Frodo could? His innocence and innate goodness seemed to enable him to resist the power of the ring better than most at Cirith Ungol (but not completely and maybe he just didin't have it long enough), so is he possibly the one being who could willfully destroy it?

(This is assuming, of course, that he could even see Frodo)
 

Anarchist

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All those things are big guessings since as soon as Frodo put on the ring, Sauron saw him and unleashed the Nazgul. It was a matter of minutes before they found him. I guess that Sam would not try to kill Frodo. Neither do I think that he would try to take it from him with violence. Perhaps he would try to persuade him. Oh this gives me a headache!!:D
 

Snaga

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Poor old Sam. It would have broken his heart. I think he showed that he would sacrifice himself for the quest, but he would not allow any harm to Frodo, even for the good of the quest. I can't see him trying to take the ring from Frodo.

Anyway I don't think he COULD take the ring by force - Frodo was invisible. Only Gollum could get to him because he could 'feel' where the ring was.
 

Parrot

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It gives me a headache too Anarchist, that’s why I threw it out to let someone else chew on it for a while. It’s one of those things that is impossible to resolve but interesting (at least to me) to ponder.

I agree completely that it is hard to see Sam trying to take the ring, but might he not recognize that doing so is the only way to SAVE Frodo at that point and that it is not really Frodo’s will at work to begin with. Yeah, I still don’t think he is going to bite the finger off though. You’re probably right Vof K that it would have broken his heart and he would have resigned to their fate, much like they did in the story.

I just think it is an interesting dilemma for such a faithful servant and sensible character.

(Dang, I knew that whole invisibility thing was going to be a sticking point.)
 

Gary Gamgee

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mmh very interesting i think sam defintinely would have tried to persuade frodo but maybe in a way that would have been out of character, i think sam would have got very angry and blocked frodo's only way out and demand, as gandalf did of bilbo, to let it go and i think frodo would have taken heed of this and eventually cast the ring into the flames. but i dont know. mmh.

3G's

has anyone got asprin?
 

Tao

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Hmmm....this is kind of a tough question. Maybe Sam might have to destroy the ring, even if it meant destroying Frodo (unlikely). I don't know...
 

Niniel

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I think Sam would have tried to persuade Frodo (without violence), and I think he would have succeeded, because Frodo would realize that he came all that way to destroy the Ring and he didn't really want it. Of course this would be very hard for Sam to do, but I think he is the only onbe who could persuade Frodo not to claim the Ring for himself. After that, Frodo still would not be able to throw the Ring away, but I think he would have let Sam do it for him. I think Sam is the only one who can throw it away, a bit like Tom Bombadil, he just doesn't care about such things.
 

Eonwe

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I think that unless Frodo could somehow take the Ring OFF his finger he was done for. And getting Sam to convince him while he's invisible wouldn't be easy. Maybe Gandalf could do what he did when Frodo was on Amon Hen, and send some message somehow into Frodo's mind to TAKE IT OFF! TAKE OFF THE RING!

Its my feeling that the Ring on his finger means the Ring can use his body at that point, since his will was not enough to overcome the will of the Ring...

Gollum biting it off, now the Ring is not on Frodo's finger nor on Gollum's finger so it can't do anything to stop Gollum from dancing around and tripping into the Crack 'O Doom.
 

Goldberry

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I think you came up with a viable alternative storyline. Sam talks to Frodo like Gandalf did to Bilbo, and Gandalf sends him a message to take off the ring and throw it into the Cracks of Doom. Between the 2 of them, I think it would have been possible without Gollum.
 
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Harad

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It may have come down to a question of timing. How much time would anyone have to persuade Frodo before the Nazgul calvary arrived?

Gollum's method of "persuasion" was quick and to the point.
 

christof

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I think Sam would in the end have resorted to violence - he showed himself to be capable of handling himself when Frodo got captured, I just think he would have tried to take the Ring from Frodo, without actually trying to kill him (shock horror, Sam could never do that) I think he probably would have failed.
 

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

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You've all given some good ideas, but there's one that I can imagine that no one has mentioned.

Sam might have grabbed Frodo and taken Frodo with him over the edge and into the Fire.

I agree that Sam wouldn't have killed Frodo to get the Ring from him, but he might have caused both their deaths to save the Shire and the rest of M-E.
 

shadowfax_g

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Sam did not think it possible to return either Frodo or himself alive anyway, so if he really understood Frodo's true will (when free from affect by the Ring), he could have casted Frodo into fire together with himself????
But it's really hard to imagine such "suicide bomb" kind of scene..
Perhaps I do not really grasp Sam's character.
 

Wood Elf

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Originally posted by Donnie B.
Sam might have grabbed Frodo and taken Frodo with him over the edge and into the Fire.
This one seems very likely, I can see this scenario happening. Its not like Sam would be killing Frodo while he lived, something Sam could probably not do. I was thinking maybe Sam would push Frodo into the pit, but I don't think Sam could have done that. This, to me, seems the most likely scenario, good one Donnie B. Good question too, interesting.. :)
 

Ragnarok

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That would make a terrific, but very sad ending. But if that happened, the Scouring wouldn't be the same without Frodo or Sam, and all the Ring-bearers wouldn't be able to sail to Valinor together.
 

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

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Sorry, Diabless, I didn't mean to make you (or anyone) cry. I just thought it was a plausible alternative to the "real" ending. But don't fret! It didn't happen that way!

;)

In another thread, I suggested a different alternative, one that's not so sad. In this one, the Ring somehow slips off its chain before Frodo claims it and puts it on. Then there's a mad scramble between Frodo, Sam, and Gollum; Sam gets the Ring and manages to throw it over the edge. Gollum, in despair, dives in after it; Frodo tries to do the same, except Sam is there to stop him.

Do you like that version better?
:cool:
 

Niniel

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That would be very well possible, I suppose. At least it's not so sad as Frodo and Sam dying... There is something else that makes me wonder about all this, because in 'The shadow of the past' Gandalf says that if he would take the Ring from Frodo by force, it would break Frodo's mind. But in the end, Gollum takes the Ring from Frodo by force (there isn't any other way to descibe biting someone's finger off as 'by force') and it does NOT 'break Frodo's mind', at least not the way I would suspect something like that to happen. Any explanation possible?
 

Tar-Palantir

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Originally posted by Niniel
That would be very well possible, I suppose. At least it's not so sad as Frodo and Sam dying... There is something else that makes me wonder about all this, because in 'The shadow of the past' Gandalf says that if he would take the Ring from Frodo by force, it would break Frodo's mind. But in the end, Gollum takes the Ring from Frodo by force (there isn't any other way to descibe biting someone's finger off as 'by force') and it does NOT 'break Frodo's mind', at least not the way I would suspect something like that to happen. Any explanation possible?
If Gollum had taken the Ring and had not destroyed it, I think it would have been a lot harder on Frodo. But, as the Ring was destroyed, the effect on him was much less. At least, that's the way I always interpreted it.
 

Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn

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I think you have it right, T-P. IIRC, the passage goes something like this: (Gandalf to Frodo) 'He would torment you for trying to keep it from him, if any torment could be worse than having it taken from you by force.'

Gandalf is referring to Sauron, who, if he got the Ring, would surely not destroy it; Frodo would not be killed immediately, and Frodo would have to suffer having the precious Ring in someone else's posession. Someone who would greatly enjoy taunting him with it for many long years to come.

Rather like Gollum's torment, only far worse -- because the hobbitses didn't take pleasure in torturing Gollum (though they did so unintentionally sometimes).
 

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