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Who is the Most Powerful Elf

Who is the Most Powerful elf

  • Galadriel

    Votes: 23 60.5%
  • Elrond

    Votes: 7 18.4%
  • Other (specify in Post)

    Votes: 8 21.1%

  • Total voters
    38

Galin

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Should we accept as “canon” the thing we can date as latest in Tolkien’s writings?

I don't accept it as canon. The question of Gil-galad's parentage is settled for me because for me, "latest" carries great weight (if I have no author-published version of something).

In my personal Silmarillion: '"it is so"

Or should we accept as “canon” the material published during his lifetime? That makes a big difference in the backstory for Galadriel.
I see no reason not to. And I argue that even Tolkien "must" treat his published work as canon, and that he knows and illustrates that he must; and even when he just can't help himself, he wriggles or dances to explain a given change. Why? So readers will believe in green suns. Or in another sense, he knows he can't simply treat already published text as mere draft work. Altering already published work has the potential to undermine the Secondary World. I note, for example, that Tolkien doesn't simply abandon the first edition of The Hobbit, he integrates it into the Legendarium.

In short: it's (whatever "it" is) canon; his readership at large (even future generations) knows "it" and Tolkien knows he just can't ignore it.

Better yet: Must we all agree to the same conclusions about material not published during his lifetime?
I don't think so. But that said, I do have my reasons for constructing my personal Silmarillion. Example, I've seen folk argue that the rate of Elven-ageing in their personal Silmarillion hails from L&C, because it is more "fleshed out" and detailed there -- compared to a line in Vinyar Tengwar (which seems to agree with a line in the Line of Elros), and the VT line being a late text, certainly later than L&C, appears, at least, to put aside the notion in L&C.


My answer, however (in short): well, if Tolkien wants to change his mind later -- and nobody knows about L&C from his perspective -- why should he feel the need to flesh out the later idea? We don't know what we don't know (which includes that maybe JRRT wants to keep this simpler), and as CJRT bent over backwards to provide dating where he could, it would seem to me that. . .

  • A) Tolkien knowingly abandoned the earlier idea (however in-depth one version is compared to the next)
  • B) Tolkien forgot the earlier idea -- but when putting his imagination once again to the same question, came up with an idea that suited him.
  • c) Something else.


I think Christopher Tolkien would have loved to incorporate JRRT's every last known idea into his constructed version published in 1977, but again, he has restrictions that we do not, or at least, has set these restrictions for himself. My guess is that Angrod > Arothir > Gil-galad would have been CJRT's choice for the constructed Silmarilion, if he had had enough text in his father's hand to work it in without "too much" invention. Same as the Helm of Hador in my opinion.

To me "late/latest known" has weight. If Tolkien goes on for ten minutes describing a new cheese he'd like to try, and I get on my destrier to go to the market to buy that cheese . . . but at the last moment he runs out and simply cries out: "No forget the cheese, I want bacon!"

Then I get bacon :)
 

Galin

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I don't think so. Maybe. But in that imagined scenario the bacon was for Tolkien.

“It is ill making a silk purse out of a sow’s lugg, or a touting horn of a tod’s tail”
Scottish poet Allan Ramsay
 

Galin

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If it's my imagined scenario, then why wasn't the bacon for me? And as for Tolkien hating Bacon: very doubtful.

Mr. Bacon didn't really get his film career going until 1978!
 

Alcuin

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Consigned to the salt mines of Núrnen…
…maybe JRRT hated bacon? (Seeing that he seemed to be quite Hobbitish in his food preferences, I do doubt that.)
Doubtful Tolkien disliked bacon. Consider this description from Frodo’s supper with Farmer Maggot:
The sun was already behind the western hills, and the light was failing. … [A] generous supper was laid on the large table. … Mrs. Maggot hustled in and out. … In a short while fourteen sat down to eat. There was beer in plenty, and a mighty dish of mushrooms and bacon, besides much other solid farmhouse fare. …
At first blush, it sounds as if he rather liked it: “Hobbitish” as you put it.
───◊───
Are we not now far afield from, “Who is the Most Powerful Elf”? Ah, how threads evolve!
 

Olorgando

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Mr. Bacon didn't really get his film career going until 1978!
Michael Moore's film was several years later. Then I applied my (probably limited) search skills to Wikipedia. I'm still baffled at what you may mean. 😬
Are we not now far afield from, “Who is the Most Powerful Elf”? Ah, how threads evolve!
On the time scale of this thread we're talking at most about mutation, which then can lead to evolution (but I'm definitely staying away from "X-Men" territory! 🙄 )
... but bacon doesn’t 🙂 🥓 Or does it?
Bacon as such, most unlikely. But on a microscopic level, evolution can't be ruled out (those bacteria definitely out-evolve everything else).
Should such microscopic evolution become macroscopically visible, then it's high time to dump that bacon in the dustbin! 🤮
 

Olorgando

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Mr. Bacon didn't really get his film career going until 1978!
The ambiguous information content in Mr. Galin's post show a high degree of qualification for higher management duties. :cool:
No College Bowl points for you!

OK. Kevin, not Francis. :rolleyes:
But that reference to 1978 can only mean the film "National Lampoon's Animal House".
Based on two writers' and one producer's experiences with fraternities at their respective colleges.
One of which I attended for a bit over two years (without graduating) a bit over ten years later than the co-perpetrator of the film.
While by my times - I was in the second class matriculated coeducational - things had begun to change, dim memories about comments on that film seem to indicate that the portrayal of events in the film were only mildly exaggerated - even with John Belushi being one of the actors. 🤪
 

CirdanLinweilin

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Tell me about that (bad?) habit, I know it well - though I prefer to call it extreme flexibility in the chronological assignment of my daily activities. :cool:
When you've had enough sleep, can you elucidate who or what is meant by Fhard? All of my Guides / Companions / Lexicons utterly fail me here. 🤐

Guys, can we keep that not-to-be-named-here pork product / family name of an English philosopher of the 16th/17th century with first name Francis quarantined in the one thread it has already infested, please? 😖
I am cackling.

You guys are comedy gold.


CL
 

CirdanLinweilin

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Well, it's nice to be thought of as some kind of gold -- though in my case, I think it's most likely "fool's". :(
Hey, no King, Court, Nor Kingdom is without its fool.


It's heresy to be without one, and very rude and unforgiving guests will forever judge thee and thy kingdom under their noses because your kingdom cannot afford a fool!












Cl









Or Bacon.
 

Olorgando

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Hey, no King, Court, Nor Kingdom is without its fool.
It's heresy to be without one, and very rude and unforgiving guests will forever judge thee and thy kingdom under their noses because your kingdom cannot afford a fool!
Cl
Or Bacon.
I saw that last comment!!! *headbang* 🥴

Yes, but beware of kingdoms that have had management consultants around to do their dastardly deeds! (Was involved in such stuff three times with the company.)
Inevitably leads to "reorganization", "rationalization", "downsizing" (or whatever the current obfuscating term for it is) ...
And when as a result the king does double duty as his own fool … 😱😨
 

CirdanLinweilin

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I saw that last comment!!! *headbang* 🥴

Yes, but beware of kingdoms that have had management consultants around to do their dastardly deeds! (Was involved in such stuff three times with the company.)
Inevitably leads to "reorganization", "rationalization", "downsizing" (or whatever the current obfuscating term for it is) ...
And when as a result the king does double duty as his own fool … 😱😨
But be watchful of wasteful stewards, servants who are in debt, and oblivious wedding guests. Terrible people to have in a kingdom, lead to very unpleasant things.







Little New Testament reference for all of you, punishment gluttonous folk. ;)




CL
 
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