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Why didn't Sauron go to Sammath Naur?

Úlairi

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:confused: :D :D Here is a good thread to generate some great opinions! When Sauron saw Gollum and Frodo at the Crack of Doom he called up his Nazgul.

"And far away, as Frodo put the ring on and claimed it for his own, even in Sammath Naur the very heart of his realm, the power in Barad-dur was shaken, and the Tower trembled from its foundations to its proud and bitter crown. The Dark Lord was suddenly aware of him, and his Eye piercing all shadows looked across the plain to the door that he had made; and the magnitude of his own folly was revealed to him in a blinding flash, and all the devices of his enemies was at last laid bare. Then his wrath blazed in consuming flame, but his fear rose like a vast black smoke to choke him. For he knew his deadly peril and the thread upon which his doom now hung. From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain. At his summons, wheeling with a rending cry, in a last desperate race there flew, faster than the winds, the Nazgul, the Ringwraiths, and with a storm of wings they hurtled southwards to Mount Doom."
Sauron was a smart guy, he knew what he was doing, yet why did he call on the Nazgul. Yes he should have done so, but at the same time go himself. He was in Barad-dur, a few kilometers away, and that would mean nothing to a Maia. He would have been there in a second. He could have seized the Ring and he would be powerful enough to take over Middle-earth with no problems. It would have been easy for him. But why didn't he???:confused: :confused: :D
 

Legolam

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I suppose this also begs the question - what actual physical power did Sauron have? He was a disembodied spirit, so would he have the means to attack Frodo himself and get the ring off him. Maybe sending the Nazgul was the best he could do?

Also, with Frodo finally "claiming the ring for himself", maybe Sauron was scared that Frodo would be able to harness its power or something. Because, up until that point, Frodo had never claimed the ring for himself and had always accepted that it was Sauron's.

Just an opinion, but a really good question!!!

PS 300th post - yay!!! Finally!
 

Cian

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Sauron was not a disembodied spirit until after the destruction of the Ring (at this stage). Flight is fast, enter the Nazgûl.
 
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Arathorn

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If Suaron was disembodied, he couldn't do anything to take the ring away. If Sauron could take physical form he still had limits on his power, even with the powers of a Maia (i.e. Saruman and Gandalf). As such he knew the Nazgul could get there faster.
 

Eonwe

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Well, we could probably say that he pretty much nearly jumped out the window at the top of the Barad-dur when he saw what was happening :)

I think that perhaps a Maia with a physical form, can't fly, if the physical form can't fly, unless he/she leaves the physical form... Similar to Gandalf the WHITE being carried by Gwaihir to Mount Doom.
 

Úlairi

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:D :D :D Firstly, Legolam. Sauron would not at all have been scared of Frodo. He knew that none could control the ring save him and him only. If Frodo knew how to use it, Sauron would still beat him. I mean, Frodo is just a mere mortal Hobbit with the most powerful object in ME on his finger, when Sauron WAS the most powerful thing in ME with or without the Ring on his finger. Secondly, Eonwe. Eonwe, I believe that in physical form Sauron could fly. As you said, Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast could not, but their powers were limited because the Valar told them they were not allowed to use their full powers at all. There is one question that does arise amidst all of this, could Sauron at any point in The Lord of the Rings take physical form? It would be quite good to be an eye even if you could become physical, because Sauron's eye could pierce all shadows, at it says in LoTR. As a spirit, I believe Maiar still could do physical things unless they had been slain and were disembodied spirits, as has been mentioned. I hope that clears something up!:D :D :D
 

Cian

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Originally posted by Ulairi
There is one question that does arise amidst all of this, could Sauron at any point in The Lord of the Rings take physical form?
Sauron had acieved a physical form by this time (that of a man of more than human stature but not gigantic). Tolkien explained it took "longer" for him to achieve this after the Last Alliance than it had after the fall of Númenor.

"I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished." JRRT
 

Úlairi

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No Beleg, I don't think Sauron moved a meter, when he should have, but left the Nazgul to it. That is why I generated this thread as as to why he did it when he could have done it himself. There are no queries as to what speed Maiar spirits could go, for they could appear and reapper in different places. It would have been easy for Sauron to go to Sammath Naur before 30 seconds or a minute and snatch the Ring from Gollum as he fell in, or have taken it from Frodo when he claimed it, so why didn't he?
 

Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Ulairi
No Beleg, I don't think Sauron moved a meter, when he should have, but left the Nazgul to it. That is why I generated this thread as as to why he did it when he could have done it himself. There are no queries as to what speed Maiar spirits could go, for they could appear and reapper in different places. It would have been easy for Sauron to go to Sammath Naur before 30 seconds or a minute and snatch the Ring from Gollum as he fell in, or have taken it from Frodo when he claimed it, so why didn't he?

Yeah i geuss so. I'm not sure maybe he panicked and just made the wrong decision. Ulairi email me.
 

Bucky

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>>>
I suppose this also begs the question - what actual physical power did
Sauron have? He was a disembodied spirit,

No, Sauron had a definite shape in the 3rd Age by this time.
Note Gollum: "He has only nine (fingers), but they are enough".
Does a spirit have fingers unless it has a physical form? No.
Pippin at the palantir: "Then HE (Sauron) came....'Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. Say exactly that'".
Also, as previously stated by others, Tolkien says in his letters & Appendice B to TLOR that Sauron 'began to take shape' earlier in the 3rd Age.

And, I don't know where you got the idea that the Valar or Maiar (and specifically Sauron at this point) could just 'up & disappear' & poof! reappear somewhere else. They could certainly disappear ( although Sauron had only ONE physical form after the drowning of Numenor & it took time to re-form), but there isn't any mention I can think of where a Vala or Maia disappears & then travels a large distance & reappears immediately like Scotty just 'beamed them up'.

And, Barad-Dur is alot further than a 'few killometers' to Mt Doom.
It looks like around 25-35 miles (40-60 k's) on my map....

Finally, as I read it, although others may disagree, Sauron took the form of a man (although I buy the larger therory), an evil 'Dark Lord' manifestation, & in that form he had ONE eye. Read the end of Akallabeth & the beginning of 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age'.
Sauron's pleasant form goes down into the abyss.
His spirit returns to ME.
He reforms his physical shape & it can only be evil. Tolkien says of that physical shape:
'There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure.'

Now, if that form is called & contains 'The Eye of Sauron', & he's able to go out in that form & physically fight Gil-Galad & Elendil, he must be in a tangable physical form himself, correct?
 

Beleg Strongbow

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Originally posted by Bucky
>>>
I suppose this also begs the question - what actual physical power did
Sauron have? He was a disembodied spirit,

No, Sauron had a definite shape in the 3rd Age by this time.
Note Gollum: "He has only nine (fingers), but they are enough".
Does a spirit have fingers unless it has a physical form? No.
Pippin at the palantir: "Then HE (Sauron) came....'Tell Saruman this dainty is not for him. Say exactly that'".
Also, as previously stated by others, Tolkien says in his letters & Appendice B to TLOR that Sauron 'began to take shape' earlier in the 3rd Age.

And, I don't know where you got the idea that the Valar or Maiar (and specifically Sauron at this point) could just 'up & disappear' & poof! reappear somewhere else. They could certainly disappear ( although Sauron had only ONE physical form after the drowning of Numenor & it took time to re-form), but there isn't any mention I can think of where a Vala or Maia disappears & then travels a large distance & reappears immediately like Scotty just 'beamed them up'.

And, Barad-Dur is alot further than a 'few killometers' to Mt Doom.
It looks like around 25-35 miles (40-60 k's) on my map....

Finally, as I read it, although others may disagree, Sauron took the form of a man (although I buy the larger therory), an evil 'Dark Lord' manifestation, & in that form he had ONE eye. Read the end of Akallabeth & the beginning of 'Of the Rings of Power & the Third Age'.
Sauron's pleasant form goes down into the abyss.
His spirit returns to ME.
He reforms his physical shape & it can only be evil. Tolkien says of that physical shape:
'There now he brooded in the dark, until he had wrought for himself a new shape; and it was terrible, for his fair semblance had departed for ever when he was cast into the abyss at the drowning of Numenor. He took up again the great Ring and clothed himself in power; and the malice of the Eye of Sauron few even of the great amoung Elves and Men could endure.'

Now, if that form is called & contains 'The Eye of Sauron', & he's able to go out in that form & physically fight Gil-Galad & Elendil, he must be in a tangable physical form himself, correct?


Yes most of that is right. Although it ws the nazgul that spoke to Pippin in the palantir not sauron.
 

Legolam

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I don't know why I always thought of Sauron as a disembodied spirit. I guess it was just all this talk of eyes that made me always picture him as this evil spirit residing in Barad-Dur. :rolleyes:
 

Úlairi

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Bucky, there is absolutely no evidence stating that they couldn't just disappear and reappear in different places, I mean, come on Bucky, they're Gods. They have great powers, we must presume that the ability to disappear and reappear is just a normal thing with any God. We are only ever given accounts when they resume their physical form. Physically, they can't do that, but spiritually, I believe they can. Who is to say that they couldn't? The Valar were basically all-powerful and the Maiar are simply of a lesser degree but with the same powers as the Valar, except that the Valar's powers were stronger than that of the Maiar.
 

Cian

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Sauron took a long time to reform his physical 'body' after the Last Alliance. And there's no evidence (I know of) to bolster the idea of a Third Age Sauron that could simply physically pop from place to place at will.

Sauron needed the Nazgûl for their speed.
 
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Greenwood

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Bucky is absolutely right; it was Sauron who spoke to Pippin in the Palantir.

Quote by Ulairi
there is absolutely no evidence stating that they couldn't just disappear and reappear in different places
Ulairi

More importantly, there is "absolutely no evidence" Sauron, or anyone else in Middle-earth, could do the kind of instantaneous transportation you suggest. If they could there would be no story! Why send the Nazgul to the Shire looking for the Ring? Why not just zip over himself? Why not just pop in at Rivendell while Frodo and friends are there? Why tell Pippin through the palantir that he is sending for him? Why not just pop up there? When writing a story you cannot give a character (either a good or evil one) unlimited powers, for then you cannot have a story. The science fiction author Issac Asimov, one of the few writers to ever write science fiction mystery stories, once wrote that in order to write a mystery/detective story in the science fiction genre you had to place limits on what could be done. No reader is going to tolerate a mystery where at some point the detective merely pulls out a device and announces: "My Mark IV Psychic Scanner here proves that Smithers the butler did it!" The same is equally true in a fantasy. You have to place limits on your creations, otherwise there can be no coherent story. No where does Tolkien give an instantaneous transport ability to any of his characters and for good reason. He may have made Sauron and the Maiar a form of gods, but he did not give them unlimited powers.
 

aragil

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Further reiterating Greenwood, Cian and Bucky...

The Balrogs are described as travelling with 'winged speed'. I imagine that if the Maia could teleport, then the Balrogs would have teleported rather than travelled with winged speed. Come to think of it, if Maia could just teleport, then I can think of a pair Balrogs which wouldn't have been slain by falling.
Also, in Tolkien's metaphysics section in Morgoth's Ring (HoME v.10), I believe Tolkien attributes the same basic attributes to the Valar and Maiar as to his children: a spirit and a body. I can't remember for sure, but if that is the case then they can either disembody and then re-embody, or they can disembody and then take a long time making a new body (perhaps drawing away the substance from their former body?) like Sauron did after the fall of Numenor and the Battle of the Last Alliance. Either way, there is no indication of a swift disembodiment in one locale followed by an instantaneous embodiment in another. Also, it seems that even the spirit requires time to travel over distances. Witness Gandalf's speech about what happened after he slew (and was slain by) the Balrog of Moria. (paraphrasing) 'Long I wondered on forgotten paths, naked I was sent back to the West'. It seems that even in this instance where speed would be of the utmost importance it took Gandalf's spirit some time to make it to Valinor, even without that cumbersome body slowing it down.
 

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