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Why didn't the Valar receive the One Ring?

Anarchist

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Ulairi what are you talking about?!?!?!?!??!! I never mentioned that Gandalf was more powerful than Sauron. No way man!! You completely, totally misunderstood my words. Perhaps I was not clear enough. When I said that Sauron was less powerful I meant he was less powerful than the VALAR . It just happened that I mentioned Gandalf just before the sentence about Sauron. No way man! Gandalf was powerful but not that much! So keep your guns and put your sword back in its seath and first think before attacking. As we say in my country don't let the tongue run faster that the mind.
Grond, I guess you beated us all! But I guess it's unfair that the pople of ME had to learn the hard way! And why did the elves have to leave? Why had their time come?
 

Grond

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Originally posted by Anarchist
...But I guess it's unfair that the pople of ME had to learn the hard way! And why did the elves have to leave? Why had their time come?
The Elves as a rule, really weren't meant to dwell in Middle-earth. They were to live and co-mingle with the Ainur. Aside from a few straglers, the host of the Elven People made its way to Eressea and Aman and was meant to set up house there... which they did and they loved it... until Melkor stirred up embers of kingdoms to be won and battles to be fought by 1) corrupting Feanor and 2) stealking his Silmarils and 3) killing Feanor's father. This lead to the Flight of the Noldor and the rest is (as they say) Tokienesque History 101.

In the end, we are left to believe that the Eldar and even all other Elvish Peoples of Middle-earth, succumbed to the calling of the sea and their yearning to go home. Home for them was Valinor. And... that is why I said that they had to leave. They left because they wanted to. :)
 

Maedhros

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until Melkor stirred up embers of kingdoms to be won and battles to be fought by 1) corrupting Feanor and 2) stealking his Silmarils and 3) killing Feanor's father.
Grond, are you saying, what i think you're saying?
 

Grond

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Originally posted by Maedhros

Grond, are you saying, what i think you're saying?
Of course, I'm saying what you think I'm saying. Without Melkor's interference, Feanor (in the story) would not have deserted Aman in the way he did. He may have gone for different reasons... but in the Silmarillion it is very clear that Melkor was the catalyst that brought Feanor's "dark side" to the forefront. I've never said anything different. I stand by my assertion that had Feanor not been susceptible to this subversion, the Flight and the Kinslaying would still not have occurred. :)
 

Maedhros

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I stand by my assertion that had Feanor not been susceptible to this subversion, the Flight and the Kinslaying would still not have occurred.
So Melkor is partially responsible for Feanor's actions then.
 

Grond

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In my own poll, Feanor's Fate... I voted for all of the above. Melkor's release by the Valar was an honest mistake but a mistake none the less. That contributed to Feanor's corruption. Melkor played on the basic flaws in Feanor's character to get him to do exactly what he (Melkor) wanted him (Feanor) to do... and that contributed to Feanor's corruption. But to coin a phrase from a former American president... "The Buck Stops Here". Feanor must accept the responsibility for his own actions because he and he alone is the only person who controls his own actions.

If we desire to point fingers we can point at Finwe for remarrying. It was that event and the subsequent birth of Feanor's half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin that upset him the most. He just couldn't handle competition for glory.
 

Maedhros

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It was that event and the subsequent birth of Feanor's half-brothers Fingolfin and Finarfin that upset him the most. He just couldn't handle competition for glory.
Now that you mention this: What did Fingolfin or Finarfin ever create in Valinor. Can you say NOTHING. What competition?
 

pohuist

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Originally posted by Ulairi


We are very learned, you and I, but one can defeat the other, and this time, you got me. I submit. In no way can I disagree with a perfect post, there are no holes that I can find. )
Ulairi, I mad some of the arguments Grond did, maybe less accurately and persuasively, but nonethelss. So, I think you should agree with me as well. Ah, BTW, you never answered my strongest argument -- if Gandalf was to deliver the Ring he had to have it in his possession, and that's a definite problem.

As for contradiction with sending Istari, Grond have answered that, I have nothing to add. I don't see much difference (besides purely technical between "Defeat Sauron" and "rally people to defeat Sauron" -- the end result is the same and he defeated Sauron using the powers he was allowed to use -- not warrior strenght but wisdom, perception and ability to influence others.
 

Úlairi

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Originally posted by pohuist


Ulairi, I mad some of the arguments Grond did, maybe less accurately and persuasively, but nonethelss. So, I think you should agree with me as well. Ah, BTW, you never answered my strongest argument -- if Gandalf was to deliver the Ring he had to have it in his possession, and that's a definite problem.

As for contradiction with sending Istari, Grond have answered that, I have nothing to add. I don't see much difference (besides purely technical between "Defeat Sauron" and "rally people to defeat Sauron" -- the end result is the same and he defeated Sauron using the powers he was allowed to use -- not warrior strenght but wisdom, perception and ability to influence others.
I am sorry pohuist, I did not mean to leave you out of the equation. Yes, I suupose you did make some of the arguments for Grond. Well done to you also. As for Gandalf delievring the One, yes that is a good question and as always, I have a theory. We all know that Gandalf would be tempted by the One, so, perhaps Gandalf could actually carry it in a way in which he could not touch it. Such as in the movie where he has it in an envelope. But, he would always be tempted to put it on being a Maia. The only way I could argue the fact that Gandalf would NOT be as so stupid to put it on is because of the fact that he is the wisest of all Maiar. Grond and Maehdros, argue about this somewhere in the correct threads.
 

Grond

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Originally posted by Maedhros

Now that you mention this: What did Fingolfin or Finarfin ever create in Valinor. Can you say NOTHING. What competition?
A father's love has nothing to do with what one makes with one's hands. Feanor was ever jealous of Indis and her sons. Not because of what they were capable of making but because of what they were capable of taking... Finwe's love and devotion. And the fear and resentment was unwarranted because nothing Indis nor Fingolfin nor Finarfin could have said or done would have made Finwe love Feanor less. That is one of the greatest tragedys of the whole tale. Feanor could and should have been a loving and devoted brother. I'm not sure if Finarfin was but you know for darn sure that Fingolfin was. He humbled himself before Feanor even WHEN HE HAD DONE NO WRONG. He wasn't trying to usurp Feanor's place by petitioning Finwe, yet Feanor drew a weapon and threatened his life. Had Fingolfin been any more strong willed, a kinslaying would have occurred before Aqualonde and let us not forget who was mightiest in arms. Feanor wouldn't have led the Noldor because his brother would have skewered him.
 

Erestor Arcamen

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I found this old ticket as well. Reading through it, my opinion is, the Valar didn't want to keep interceding because they knew the age of man was coming where magic and mythology would be leaving Arda. Even the Istari were sent and they were shaped as men, not elves or dwarves or anything but old looking men because the primary focus was for men to be able to rise up against Sauron.
 

Ithilethiel

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I found this old ticket as well. Reading through it, my opinion is, the Valar didn't want to keep interceding because they knew the age of man was coming where magic and mythology would be leaving Arda. Even the Istari were sent and they were shaped as men, not elves or dwarves or anything but old looking men because the primary focus was for men to be able to rise up against Sauron.
The Necromancer strikes again eh EA! :p

I agree with your assessment. Reading thru the old posts there are obviously other reasons but the fact that Arda was transforming to be more human-centric was a major reason as I see it. The elves knew it and so did the dwarves. Times were changing, man for better or worse was coming into his own.

Progressing thru the trilogy one can sense magic leaking out of Ea. At first a trickle but by RotK Tolkien writes less and less of supernatural solutions. There yet exists some remnants but now the ongoing push of man as primary influencer demands its downplay. Even so, the working of all races working together for good as seen in the Fellowship is magical.
 

Erestor Arcamen

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The Necromancer strikes again eh EA! :p
This one actually wasn't archived , I just found it while going through the old pages of this forum. Needless to say, there are some very interesting discussions that have occurred on this site. I figured since it's been slow idI try and bring some to the forefront, one at a time.
 

Inziladun

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I don't believe that 'magic' was fading from the World, just that Men were not as adept in distinguishing the transcendental aspects their World from the natural. And it seems the Valar learned from their intervening with the Elves upon their awakening, however the Elves had already been given a choice and had witnessed the Valar. For Men this could not be the same, and some of the Eldar deemed them more to the likes of Melkor, when truly they were closer to Eru; and it was that bond that swayed the chances of the World for the better of their fates, for they were not bound to the World.
 

Olorgando

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The central point, at which JRRT arrived at the (while writing the) “Council of Elrond” was that the One Ring must be taken to Mount Doom, the only place where it could be destroyed. Otherwise, we don’t have the story as written.

But when I think of quite a bit of the writing in HoMe about the first Age, I remember often taking a very dim view of the actions – more often inactions – of the Valar. Something like “oh help, doesn’t Eru have better Ainur as caretakers of Arda? This can at best be a B-team!” Now this writing is not canon in the strict sense of author published. But I certainly had a repeated sense of massive dereliction of duty by the Valar. Sauron, Balrog(s), dragons – all this was stuff they should have dealt with, not left to the Eruhini. No wonder humans who had vague inkling of this lot then construed those often disreputable Olympians or Asgardians (to name just European examples) from them! ;)
 
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I was not even 5 months old when this thread was created so clearly I must get a word in because I don't often stumble across threads this prehistoric. 😉

I think some interesting points are being made here.
 

Gothmog

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Progressing thru the trilogy one can sense magic leaking out of Ea. At first a trickle but by RotK Tolkien writes less and less of supernatural solutions. There yet exists some remnants but now the ongoing push of man as primary influencer demands its downplay. Even so, the working of all races working together for good as seen in the Fellowship is magical.
It is not "magic leaking out of Ea" but Elven magic being superseded by Human magic.
But to the Atani I will give a new gift.' Therefore he willed that the hearts of Men should seek beyond the world and should find no rest therein; but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which is as fate to all things else; and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

Quenta Silmarillion: Of the Beginning of Days
 

Olorgando

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I've been gone 17 years and this thread still lives. I used to spend way too much time on here.
To say it "still lives" may be a bit wide of the mark. The term "Necromancy" (making me think of all sorts of classes of the "undead") has been voiced repeatedly, mostly by one member who shall remain unnamed in this post of mine. ;)
 

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