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Why do you think that Sauron fell back into evil?

Úlairi

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:confused: :confused: :confused: It says in the Sil that:

"Then Sauron was ashamed, and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith; for under Morgoth his power had been great. Therefore when Eonwe departed he hid himself in Middle-earth; and he fell back into evil, for the bonds that Morgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
Now I know is says:

'For the bonds that Motgoth had laid upon him were very strong."
But they must have been extremely strong to withold one of the greatest Maia from going back to good.

Can any of you guys think of any other reasons as to why Sauron fell back into evil???:confused: :confused: :D
 

Khamul

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He also was able to still do some "mischief" even back then. Remember that he became friends with many of the elves, on the grounds of bringing presents alone. He knew that he had some power over alot of these lesser beings, as long as he was allowed to be in his more beautiful forms. The elves, fearing no evil, and thinking that because the Valar had come and saved them, that no harm could befall them now, easily accepted Sauron and he got a foothold in their minds. He was able to gain trust, and be able to assemble his army without much interference. Then he was able to corrupt the Dunedain and you know what happened from there. Well anyway, this is just my 2 cents and will probably be shot down or something, but O well......
 

Beleg Strongbow

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I think he never left it but who want to go back to valinor. Sure they wouldn't let him just go around they would lock him up and he loves to dominate sauron he would want to rule m.e until melkor arrived/. He was the strongest there so why not?? And you know how we look at mordor and say yuk who would live there in all that waste and with the orcs maybe he thinks that with places like lorien, shire and valinor?? Who knows you'd need to ask him:D :D ;) .


Ulairi: Email me;) :)
 

Legolam

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I reckon that the elves got complacent, as Beleg says. The Vala have come down and saved them, and they think everything's going to be peachy from now on. They forget that Sauron needs help. He's had a taste of power, and isn't likely to give that up without a lot of support from the elves. But they just ignore him, and he figures - what's the point in going back to good if they're going to ignore him. The power has corrupted him and made him weak-willed, so it's so easy for him to slide back into his old ways because he thinks no-one cares. Also, he was "humiliated", and everyone knows how hard it is to admit your wrong. Sometimes it's just easier to stay as you are and not make the noble move of admitting someone else was right.

I know what I'm trying to say in my head, but it's not coming out right. :rolleyes: Someone say they understand what I'm getting at!!
 

Grond

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The quote provided at the beginning of this thread says it all. So wrote the author concerning Sauron's chance of redemption,

"...and he was unwilling to return in humiliation and to receive from the Valar a sentence, it might be, of long servitude in proof of his good faith;..."

The answer is as clear as the nose on your face. Feanor's main problem was the same. Turin's main problem was the same. And, Sauron's main problem was the same. The problem was PRIDE!. Each let PRIDE get in the way of their redemption. Each failed in Middle-earth because of their PRIDE!!
 

Úlairi

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Well done!!!

:D :D :D Great answer. It is exactly the same one I had in mind. Sauron let his pride get the better of him. He had been so powerful when he was evil and he was finally defeated! He held a grudge and hated the Valar because they were right and he was wrong!!! He fell back into evil because he knew he would be more powerful that way and that he didn't want to admit he was wrong! Good answer!!!:D :D :D
 

Barliman Butterbur

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Úlairi said:
Can any of you guys think of any other reasons as to why Sauron fell back into evil???:confused: :confused: :D
The way I read the Silmarillion, he was "evil" — or at least the seeds of it were there in terms of his essential personality (in terms of wilfulness and jealousy) right from the start. He didn't "fall back" at all, but just relapsed into his characteristic self after a slight detour into (very!) temporary remorse.

Barley
 

Ithrynluin

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Sauron must have been well aware of the long sentence Morgoth was compelled to endure after his captured by the Valar. A similar thing might have been waiting for him, though perhaps the sentence would not be as lengthy since he was not the main 'actor' (though he had a part in every deed of Morgoth's). Be that as it may, Sauron was probably much more keen on remaining in Middle-Earth where he was his own master, where he had the freedom to rule, to order and to devise to his heart's content. And understandably so. Who knows if he could have been truly 'cured' of evil, or was he too far gone already, and his heart too black?
 

AustintheGreen

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I think Sauron had let into his heart, some of the dischord that was at the root of Melkor. Think of how the ring corrupts mens hearts, I can't imagine what the power of Melkor must have been like, especially in corrupting Sauron. Evil in the universe is there because of the balance between it and the good. Do you think he ever really repented internally?

Barliman Butterbur said:
The way I read the Silmarillion, he was "evil" — or at least the seeds of it were there in terms of his essential personality (in terms of wilfulness and jealousy) right from the start. He didn't "fall back" at all, but just relapsed into his characteristic self after a slight detour into (very!) temporary remorse.

Barley
Upon closer inspection of the text I've found that the preceeding sentences to the ones being discussed actually shed some light on the debate. It reads:

"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West."

It says "some hold," and that is not an absolute. I personally believe that this line purposefully leaves it up for interpretation by the reader, as most mythology does. We have to ask if we believe that the root of evil is within the self, or an external force. hmmm...
 

Elfarmari

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AustintheGreen said:
Upon closer inspection of the text I've found that the preceeding sentences to the ones being discussed actually shed some light on the debate. It reads:

"When Thangorodrim was broken and Morgoth overthrown, Sauron put on his fair hue again and did obeisance to Eonwe, the herald of Manwe, and abjured all his evil deeds. And some hold that this was not at first falsely done, but that Sauron in truth repented, if only out of fear, being dismayed by the fall of Morgoth and the great wrath of the Lords of the West."

It says "some hold," and that is not an absolute. I personally believe that this line purposefully leaves it up for interpretation by the reader, as most mythology does. We have to ask if we believe that the root of evil is within the self, or an external force. hmmm...
I've thought about this before, and I also think it still boils down to Pride, as has been brought up. Even if Sauron did 'in truth' repent at the time, I do not think that repentence would have lasted long, especially if he had returned to Valinor to receive a sentence. Given what we know of Morgoth's story, and of Sauron's long servitude to Melkor, I think it highly unlikely that Sauron would have been willing to renounce his evil ways and truly turn to doing good. Whether he would have been able to re-invent himself, I do not know.
 

Moonbeams

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I think the answer to him falling back on evil lies in the beginning. When the music of creation was sung, Melkor/Morgoth was the first one to initiate the discord, or evil. However, he was not alone. As soon as he started, other joined him. With this we can argue that discord, or evil, was present in them in the very begining, and was part of their nature.
I don't think it says who it was that sang in tune with Melkor, but Sauron being his closest and most trusting sidekick, we can argue he was there, right next to Melkor, disrupting the music.
So, if evil was his characteristic, you can say his character flaw from the very beginning, he could not override it even when his "master" fell and was taken captive.
 

Eledhwen

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Moonbeam is spot on. Melkor needed no incentive other than his desire not to follow but to lead. It may well be that in singing his discord he wove evil into his own heart and the hearts of those who followed his tune. Was this involuntary? I don't think so, it was probably just easier. If those who sang along with Melkor wove evil into their own hearts by doing so, then Sauron was surely among them.

Sauron was Melkor's Lieutenant, favouring Melkor over Aule because he too desired power over fellowship. It has been mooted that pride made him fall back into evil. I believe pride is what drove him away from the conditions of his restoration and, on its own, I believe pride would have merely kept his back turned. But he didn't just stay away but instead put great efforts into corrupting what he knew to be good. It was pride that kept him away, but it was his own evil heart that then made him proactively destructive again.
 
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Grond

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Moonbeam is spot on. Melkor needed no incentive other than his desire not to follow but to lead. It may well be that in singing his discord he wove evil into his own heart and the hearts of those who followed his tune. Was this involuntary? I don't think so, it was probably just easier. If those who sang along with Melkor wove evil into their own hearts by doing so, then Sauron was surely among them.

Sauron was Melkor's Lieutenant, favouring Melkor over Aule because he too desired power over fellowship. It has been mooted that pride made him fall back into evil. I believe pride is what drove him away from the conditions of his restoration and, on its own, I believe pride would have merely kept his back turned. But he didn't just stay away but instead put great efforts into corrupting what he knew to be good. It was pride that kept him away, but it was his own evil heart that then made him proactively destructive again.
I'm with you but I think there was also some of Melkor's own desires in Sauron. He knew his master was going to be judged harshly by the Valar. I think he was not only avoiding having to return to Valinor in shame but also had begun to lust after his own power. With Melkor gone, he could now rise to be the new Dark Lord... and that' just what he did.

Cheers,

grond
 

Sulimo

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I sometimes wonder if Sauron is as evil as we make him out to be. I believe that when he did present himself before Eonwe he was sincere. I am curious if it wasn't shame and a bitter resentment of the Valar that was his undoing. His master was cruel, and punished failure with cruelty, but when he presented himself before Eonwe he was meant with forgiveness, and grace.

This forgiveness was offered to one who had committed some of the most heinous crimes in Arda. For example: it was because of Sauron that the lamps were destroyed. I think that this offer from those you wronged would be bitter drink to swallow. Especially for one who was at his origin good. I think he was so deeply shamed he could not face them, and responded in going in the extreme opposite direction to become the Dark Lord.
 
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Mimzy

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I think he was so deeply shamed he could not face them, and responded in going in the extreme opposite direction to become the Dark Lord.
Yeah kind of like a lot of criminals in our society, I think. The good side isn't really that forgiving or welcoming is it?
 

Sulimo

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Yeah kind of like a lot of criminals in our society, I think. The good side isn't really that forgiving or welcoming is it?
I agree with your point, however, I am skeptical if it would apply to Sauron. The reason for my skepticism is that I do believe that Sauron would have encountered unconditional grace. Grace beyond anything thing we can possibly imagine. I do believe that he would be held accountable, but the grace of Illuvatar would forgive his actions. He just did not have the stomach to accept that through his own blend of guilt, pride, and shame.
 

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