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Your thoughts about Fëanor

Telchar

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What do you think of Fëanor? Sure he did some wonderfull things, but he caused the slewing of the Teleri, he left his brother and nephews to cross the Hecaraxe, he brought the doom of Mandos upon the Noldor. He caused more greaf than joy..

Was he the greates among the Elves knowledge and wisdom or was he the greates fool among Elves?
 
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Iluvatar

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Definitely one of the greatest fools in all Elvendom. Sure, he had tremendous abilities, but his evil deeds overwhelm them. Even when he realised as he was dying that the Noldor could never overthrow Morgoth, he demanded from his sons that they obey their oath against Morgoth. What an idjit!
 

Ciryaher

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Feanor's pride led to his destruction, as well as the destruction of many of his people. Great skill does not warrant pointless death and kinslaying, however beautiful the Silmarilli were.
 

Telchar

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In one way melkor succeded in something, he managed to get Feanor so angry and blinded by his pride that he rebelled against the Valar, whitch is probably what he wanted.
 

Dengen-Goroth

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feanor's love for his work consumed him , and became to him a greater love then his children. IN that way he was not much unlike Melkor, for he wanted the sil. at the expence of anything as much as Melkor wanted ME at the expence of anything.
 

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Was he the greates among the Elves knowledge and wisdom or was he the greates fool among Elves?

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Feanor was known for his craftsmanship and skill of hand and sword. I dont recall anything about knowledge (although i could be mistaken), i can say that the title for wisdom would go to either Finwe(for those elves in Valinor) or to Elrond (he was elven, for his choise made him so). I can name, no matter how much i think, a greater fool, man or elf, than Feanor.
 

Iluvatar

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The first sentence of part i of Appendix A. "Feanor was the greates of the Eldar in arts and lore, . . ." That seems to me that he was tops in terms of knowledge. My interpretation of wisdom howver, is the ability to use knowledge, and Feanor's pridefulness seems to disqualify him for the title of greatest in wisdom. Also, Finwe strikes me as pretty much of an idiot in his blindness to Feanor's faults. He may well have loved Feanor as a father should, but he seemed to love him to the point of leaving Fingolfin and Finarfin in distant second place. I'd say that the wisest of the Eldar was probably Ingwe, the Lord of the Vanyar, although there's no real proof since he's barely mentioned at all.
 

Thorondor

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Yes Feanor was a bonehead, but don't bash him too bad. Just like Morgoth it was Iluvatar that made him that way. That didn't mean that he had to do most of those things, but if it wasn't for Feanor, almost all of the high elves would have stayed in Valinor. They wouldn't have learned nearly what they had if not from him. He got them to return to middle Earth, where Eru wanted them, instead of hanging out in Valinor, while Morgoth and his friends did as they pleased in ME. If after Morgoth stole his sils. was he to say, "oh well, I hope Morgoth likes them." No he had to do what he did, because that is what fate lead him too. Remember, "Even the wise cannot see all ends"
 

Iluvatar

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Thorondor,
Are you arguing that there is no such thing as free will? That we (or the denizens of Middle-earth) are not responsible for our actions? You say that Iluvatar made Feanor the way that he was, so it's not really Feanor's fault that he's an a$$hole? Also, if Iluvatar was so horny for getting the Eldar back to Middle-earth, why did he let the Valar bring them to Valinor in the first place (an amazingly STUPID decision that irks me every time I read about it)? In fact, if The Noldor returning to Middle-earth was part of Iluvatar's plan, thewn why didn't he give Manwe the word to let them go, or even to aid them. No, Manwe sets there and sulks and utterly abrogates his responsibilities as Lord of the West and twiddles his thumbs whilst the Noldor in their frustration end up committing horrific hirrific deeds. That said, Manwe's incompetence in way absolves Feanor of his guilt, simply because as a Child of Iluvatar Feanor has the right and privilege and duty of taking responsibility for his actions.

BTW, as I write this, I become more and more reminded and more and more convinced that Manwe is/was incompetent. I name him Vargoth (White Foe of the World). He should have his butt seriously fired, and Ulmo should be given the job. He repeatedly showed the compassion and wisdom to serve as an effective Lord of the West. In fact, if he had been in charge the Elves would never have been sent on the journey to Valinor; the Avari would never have been abandoned at Cuivienen to become (probably) Orcs under Morgoth's corruption; Morgoth's butt would have been seriously kicked out of Thangorodrim and Beleriand, and the Noldor and Sindar wouldn't have had just about every last one of them killed before the Valar stopped navel gazing and actually went out and did their job.
 

Thorondor

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Iluvatar, I am going by the impression that you are not arguing a pt. but raising questions. First like to say that the either or of determinism/Free will is crap. like I said, it was Eru that created him, but he had his choices to make. Some where determined, like that he had to get his silmirils, and some, where not like the kin slaying, with could have been avoided.
About the part of the valar taking them to Valinor, and not aiding them, actions caused reactions, and that was what happened. and Manwe did aid them as he could under the doom of mandos, by sending Thorondor:D and the eagles to help them, and they did they whole sun and moon thing:D

Manwe the incompitent!! how sad is it when the most far sighted creation other than Iluvatar is imcompitent. Oh well, if you want to replace him with Ulmo, you could do it, you did create him:p

Back to the elves going to valinor, if they didn't go, then they would have been a wondering tribe of natives, not learned as they where destined. And after they got what they needed, that was the nudge that kicked them out of the nest. Also good can cause good or evil, just as evil can cause good. If it wasn't for Morgoth, would the noldor ever get where they got, or be like the Vanyar(the most boring elves ever). If it wasn't for Feanor, would Galadriel ever be as wise as she became? There wouldn't be a Gil Galad, or the noldor wouldn't meet the men, and they would all be just like the Harad, or other men of the east.

So i hope you understand what i am thinking that yeah, he did a lot of stupid stuff, but if he didn't there probably wouldn't be a Lothlorien, Gondolin, Imaldris, Shire, Gondor, Arnor, War of the Ring, Frodo, Bilbo, Sam, Gandalf, Aragorn, etc. . .
 

Iluvatar

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Why did the Elves have to come to Valinor at all? Why couldn't the Valar have done their jobs and came and lived amidst the Elves in Arda? The Valar instead set up their own tiny paradise and then then said it was too inconvenient for the 14 of them (plus Maiar) to get off their proverbial butts and move, but for the many many far less powerful and mobile Elves to make the move. The Valar left Middle-earth completely to Morgoth (except for Ulmo, who voted aginst Manwe's lazy dictates).

Also, I am not aware that it was Iluvatar who named Manwe Lord of the West; I was always of the impression that that was a job that fell to him when he stood up to his brother Melkor. (A bit of family megalomania, only done more subtly by Manwe? Actually, I don't believe in any evil intent from Manwe. It's merely that his incompetent complacency caused so much evil in the world.) Perhaps this is my democratic heritage causing me blindness. Anyway, even if Manwe was Iluvatar's choice for Lord of the West (although I think if anything he would have been Iluvatar's choice for Lord of Ea, not just the West), the Valar still had free will. Is it Iluvatar's fault that Manwe used his free will to be an incompetent boob?

The Vanyar are the most boring Elves ever? I guess, if living in peace and wisdom is boring? Actually, it is boring for us to read about, and so the pathos of the Noldor is more interesting for us to read about. But if you take it away from literary interest, then it is far better to live the life of the Vanyar instead of getting your butt kicked all across Beleriand by Morgoth. Galadriel would never have left Aman and so would have been even wiser than she became in Middle-earth. Gil-Galad could have been born in Valinor (both his folks presumably came from there since there's no mention of his mother being of the Sindar). And if Manwe wasn't so perfectly lodged on his butt Men would never have been ignored by the Valar and left to Morgoth's tender mercies. In fact, all Men were supposed to have the benefit of the Valar's wisdom and aid, not just the Edain.

Sure, a lot of good things would not have happened were it not for Feanor. But does that excuse him? I think not. Plus, were it not for Feanor would even better things not have eventually happened? On this point I'll even agree with you, because were it not for the sequence of events started by Feanor, Manwe probably never would have moved against Morgoth until all of Middle-earth was either corrupted or utterly defeated.
 

Thorondor

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Ok. . .I really do not want to get into a discussion of Moral Philosophy and Free Will/Determinism. The circular logic of it all tires me. 1st, I do believe that there is free will in the world around us. 2nd, Feanor wasn't the worst/best elf. 3rd, These books aren't reality, and can't be looked at in a real sense. 4th, I do not clam to know all, and all I have is my opinions.

First I would say that yes, Feanor and the rest had free will, as said in the Ainulindale:
Therefore when they beheld them(the children of Iluvater), the more did they love them, being things other than themselves, strange and FREE,. . .
But you have to remember that the history of ME began with the playing of the song by the Ainur. So that would mean that everything was predestined for them. Does that take away Free will?

Also on the point of Morgoth, here is some lines also from the Ainulindale:
And he spok to them, propounding to them the themes of music; and they sang before him, and he was glad. But for a long while they sang only each alone, or but few together, while the rest hearkened; for each comprehended only that part of the mind of Iluvatar from which he came. . .Then Iluvatar spoke, and he said: Mighty are the Ainur, and Mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Iluvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attmepteth this shall prove but MINE INSTRUMENT in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.
That does sound like an omnipotent, Omniscience, God to me. Does that take away free will? That raises the question of why Iluvatar would want evil to be in the world? What is his Theodicy of that? Is life to be a test? And if so, what was the pass/fail? There didn't seem to be a hell after ME. Or did he want character/not perfection? I know that it would be boring if the book went in the beginging Eru created perfect life, and everyone skipped around in a field of flowers like morphine addicts singing "Tidilly-didilly-di", the end.

And on Galadriel, when she was in Valinor, all she wanted was a kingdom of her own, and to rule. It took her how many ages, and the death of almost all of her kin to gain the wisdom not to take the ring?
 

Telchar

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Free will is, well, hard to understand.. Even if there is a fixed destiny for each and every one, there is free will.. How? If the Valar knew the future of a person in ME, they would know what he/she would do and the consecuenses of each event in is/hers life. But the person whos life it is would take the choises, even if they where "pre-desided", so he/she would still have free will..

Did that make any sense??
It all made sense when I thought about it, but something may have gotten lost on the way..;)
 

Gothmog

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For FREE WILL read LIMITED CHOICE! Everybody, in real life and in the books, is limited by many things. What is needed to live (food shelter and so forth), other people and what they do. You will find many limits if you care to look. Within these limits all are free to choose.

So pre-destination can set the choice and it's limits. Experiences can guide the way of the choice. But the choice itself is free. Though the consequences may not be!
 

Ciryaher

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Let us look at an example:

Most (maybe all) Muslims believe in predestination, BUT you can lose your destiny if you commit a great sin, and you can 'gain' a destiny by dying in a Jihad.

It seems contradictory, from what I see, but maybe I'm missing something. Some Christiam groups also believe in this sort of predestination (maybe Hindus and Buddhists, also).
 

Tulkas

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I personally like Feanor. I don't know what it is, but I just do. I know he did screw up a lot of stuff so I know why you guys don't like him, but I like him for some reason.
 

Tyaronumen

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Originally posted by Telchar
What do you think of Fëanor? Sure he did some wonderfull things, but he caused the slewing of the Teleri, he left his brother and nephews to cross the Hecaraxe, he brought the doom of Mandos upon the Noldor. He caused more greaf than joy..

Was he the greates among the Elves knowledge and wisdom or was he the greates fool among Elves?
Feanor was the greatest of the Elda smiths. The fact that he could create the Silmarilli was a testament that in some ways, perhaps his skills were even greater than those of Aule.

I say this because it is clear that only Feanor could create the Silmarils -- and even so, he could only accomplish this once in the confines of Ea.

So in some ways, apparently Feanor's talent and drive exceeded Aule's (although I'd not bet on Feanor to beat Aule's creation of the dwarves)...

However, a common theme among Tolkien's stories is that the desire to create, or the creation itself, is a corrupting influence upon the smith peoples. Look at Feanor and his hubris as regards the Silmarils... Aule and his hubris in determining to create the dwarven people. Sauron (the original chief of Aule's people) being corrupted because of *his* desire to create and mold... Curunir (Saruman -- also a chief of Aule's people, presumably after Sauron's corruption) being corrupted because of *his* desire to create and mold...

Etc. The smith people have a tendency to get too wrapped up in their creations and dreams of creating to easily live in harmony with the theme of Iluvatar . . . of course, Feanor was actually a part of that theme, and Aule's hubris was incorporated into the theme... but the tendency exists.
 

Tar-Steve

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for "JERK" read "A**H**E".

Feanor was a selfish JERK. He's the embodiment of the very essence of self-center. Even as he died (died!), he loved himself more that his sons (his own children!) and chose to enforce the oath he knew to be without hope instead of releasing them from it.

Who cares about his talent! He had no heart and the sils have no true beauty because of it. Above all things he's an unrepentant thief and killer and that's how he should be measured. By comparison the rest of his acts loveless, worthless, and pointless and the word "great" should not be associated with him in any way.
 

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